Author Topic: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a new SD round- update part TWO!!  (Read 1087 times)

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Offline jwc007

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Re: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a brand new SD round
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2019, 01:03:29 PM »
Very Interesting!  :)

The only 185 grain Pistol Bullets I have worked with have been in the .45 ACP and .45 Super.
I'm thinking that there will probably be some Firing Pin wipe on the Primers.

Looking forward to the review.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline Maynard

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Re: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a brand new SD round
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 02:11:11 PM »
Tagscribe!

Offline CrazyDave

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Re: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a brand new SD round
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2019, 09:45:15 PM »
Interesting!  Looking forward to the range report.

Offline armoredman

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Re: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a brand new SD round
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2019, 10:57:36 PM »
We have to do this one in more than one part, as we did not have all the resources we needed on the first go-round.

Offline RSR

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Re: Well, this is interesting, I am asked to test a brand new SD round
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2019, 02:57:32 AM »
SG Ammo still has 50 round boxes of HST last I checked.

Regardless, their website states this:
Quote
Heavy Mass Ammunition
Seismic ammo is taking conventional ammunition in a different direction. We believe a projectile with more mass traveling at a slower speed is more effective then a lighter weight projectile traveling at a higher speed and has less risk of over-penetration. Our 185gr 9mm +M ammo is now available and we have other offerings coming soon.
https://seismicammo.com/

Bottom line is that's simply not the way modern HPs work -- expansion of all modern hollow points is very much velocity-dependent.  And b/c slower bullets typically expand less, they typically penetrate deeper.  For high mass bullets like this, it substantially increases the risk of over-penetration, excepting only those cases where the bullet strikes bone (even then, heavy bullets more likely to break and fragment bone and then continue to penetrate).   It's basic physics and terminal ballistics.

Further, penetration is only important for those calibers that already lack sufficient penetration...  9mm in 124 gr+ self-defense bullets already has sufficient momentum to achieve FBI specs as do all larger calibers.  Perhaps in smaller calibers like .380 this concept might make sense (.380 ball exceeds FBI minimum penetration specs IIRC) -- but that's about it as I see it...

Now, if we're talking using pistol calibers in place of say .300 blackout, then yeah, this bullet probably has a niche in a hog, deer, etc, suppressed hunting setup.

Effectively, Seismic is rehashing the .45-70 vs .30-06 debate with this cartridge...   https://www.quora.com/What-ammunition-is-more-powerful-30-06-or-45-70

Where this whole momentum-first concept comes from is the archery world where arrows are traveling MUCH SLOWER than even subsonic bullets. 
https://www.nockout.com/understanding-the-momentum-and-kinetic-energy-of-arrows/

And if you want to get really far into the details: https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/EHU/Momentum-KineticEnergy-ArrowPenetration.pdf

Lastly, where I'm personally concerned with momentum is when it comes to intermediate barriers, penetrating concealment, and turning cover into concealment.  For instance, 120gr 7.62x39 or 140 gr .308 is much better at turning cinderblock into concrete dust than is 55 gr 5.56, etc.  And to that end, I'm sure Seismic's 185 gr 9mm will perform great against auto glass, but then Lehigh Defense's new lightweight (90 gr in 9mm) all copper rounds that create permanent would cavities via hydraulic forces also perform superbly against auto-glass -- it's as much about bullet construction as weight...

Regardless, unless one is hunting heavy-hided game and needing to do so suppressed and subsonic -- I'm personally grouping this offering with G2 RIP until I'm proven wrong.   And fwiw, Dixie Slugs already makes 700+ gr 12g shotgun slugs, but standard shotgun slugs kill bear and moose, and have probably killed a fair number of dangerous African game too -- after all, the 10g/12g is the poor man's elephant gun...

Offline armoredman

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Part One posted in original post. Part Two will be a week or so in the making, but we'll have some more interesting tests on penetration, according to theory.

Offline jwc007

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Thanks for posting this Video!  I think I'll stick to the .45 ACP when I want to shoot 185 grain Bullets.
My preference for the 124 and 135 grain Bullet weights in 9mm remains.

Note that since it's barrel does not tilt, the Beretta 92 should have produced the most consistent accuracy.
Way Back when I played with the then new 147 grain "Wonder" bullets, I had some vertical stringing
and more Firing Pin wipe with my Pre-B Cz75 and Tanfoglio TA90.  My Taurus 92 and WWII Walther P38 grouped very well with them
and thus those Bullets were restricted to those Pistols, till they were gone.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:29:17 PM by jwc007 »
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline RSR

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Thanks for posting this Video!  I think I'll stick to the .45 ACP when I want to shoot 185 grain Bullets.
My preference for the 124 and 135 grain Bullet weights in 9mm remains.

Agreed.  Good vid.

FWIW, the reason .45 acp hollow points perform better than 9mm at equivalently slow velocities is because .45s have a larger/wider hollow point cavity that allows for greater hydralic pressure despite reduced velocities -- and also why we're seeing continually wider and deeper hollow point cavities on all modern hollow points.  The below pic of HST's illustrates the HP cavity differences:


Personally, I'd first like to just see expansion of this ammo in water and in water faced with a couple layers of denim.  For water, shooting down into (from above) water-filled 55 gallon drum should allow you to retrieve all bullets without any plastic, etc, effects biasing results.  Denim's probably easiest done w/ several 1 gallon water jugs in a row.

Secondly, I'm curious about the same water tests above, but also including chrono, out of your Scorpion Evo or other 9mm carbine w/ a longer barrel -- to see if the hunting angle even holds any credibility given actual performance.

Basically, curious whether their claims of improved terminal ballistics hold up.  The reduced penetration claim certainly won't, which is why no requested testing is included above -- but you're certainly welcome to give that a go too.  I'd enjoy watching.  Thanks for taking the time to test this.

Offline holidaypf

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The keyhole has me wondering if common twist rates will be fast enough for any of this ammo.

Offline armoredman

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We don't have any 55 gallon drums, however, we will have some stuff to play with next week, hopefully. If nothing else I can do the water jug thing, have a ton of one gallon jugs around here.

Offline painter

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We don't have any 55 gallon drums, however, we will have some stuff to play with next week, hopefully. If nothing else I can do the water jug thing, have a ton of one gallon jugs around here.
I didn't think there was 55 gallons of available water in AZ...regardless of empty drums.

Carry on. ;D
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline armoredman

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The keyhole has me wondering if common twist rates will be fast enough for any of this ammo.
That is a common question right now.

Offline Wobbly

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We don't have any 55 gallon drums...


Maybe if you could get all your movie star friends out of your Olympic pool long enough...

 O0
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Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong

Offline armoredman

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Offline Tyerone

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Olympic size pool!  Talk about a posh prison for the rich & famous! :o

Sorry if this covered in the video -- going to check it out now, but I'd like to see how much if any set-back occurs with this heavy mass relative to diameter projectile.  Shoot almost a full mag, then check the remaining rounds for comparison to original overall lengths?  Maybe crimped loads would be prudent?

Hardly scientific, but I shot a couple of boxes of S&B 150gr 9mm sub-sonic.  Everything went bang and I didn't notice the bullets wobbling end over end as they flew down range.

 

anything