Author Topic: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)  (Read 578 times)

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Offline QuickDrawMcgraw

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Tomorrow and Friday I will be attending the Massad Ayoob MAG20 Live Fire - 2 Days 10Hrs each day

I will be bringing my main P10C with HBI trigger and CGW Striker w/close to 3k rds through it.

My backups are 2 other stock P10Cs I have.  (well 1 has fiber optic front :P)

I'll post my my after action review here.  This is my first -  I guess you could say professional course/class.  I have taken a bunch of classes through my range from ccw, holster drawing, low light, skill builders, advanced shooting, etc - but this will be the first I have been to by a professional and also cost more than I thought I would spend on a class.

If you are also gonna be at this class - I'll be wearing the desert multicam hat with a CZ patch on it.

On a side note - I will NOT be using my Carebear holster and double mag as my main - this will be my backup.  I use these at my local range for bowling pin, steel challenge and such :P  My main holster and double mag pouch will be Comp-Tac International.

Pic of my P10C Carebear rig :P





Offline Tanners Owner

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 11:10:00 PM »
Looking fwd to the report on the class. Been wanting to do that here in the PNW.

Am sure your P 10 will work well for you.

Love the holsters, though not sure I’m brave enough to be seen with them ;D
Like a midget at a urinal, I'll have to keep on my toes

Offline Claymore504

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 08:33:13 AM »
Looking forward to the AAR. I took my first civilian course last year through the Sig Sauer Academy. I had mixed feelings about it. I ended up taking a course that was way to basic and was geared to new shooters.

Offline Maynard

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 03:20:11 PM »
Tag

Offline QuickDrawMcgraw

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 11:16:04 PM »
First off - I know you prob wanted to see some cooler pictures than of my wagon - but there really isn't any time during shooting/learning - and I didn't think it was the right thing to do when I should be paying attention.  Also it was so freaking hot I honestly was focused on learning and keeping hydrated.

So 1st day down - started at 830AM and ended at 7PM.  Hour drive for me both ways.

It was 97 degrees today - no shade or clouds.  We were lucky enough that multiple people brought out canopy type things.  I had brought a wagon, chair and umbrella that clips to the chair or wagon.  I got it all off Amazon - the blue bag in the wagon is made by COOLER SHOCK - OMG this thing was bada$$ - look up the ice packs (u dont need their case) 97 degrees and when I got home the ice packs were still frozen.  Kept all my water and food COLD whole day.   I did not take many pictures today.  It was HOT and I was trying to pay attention.  I thought I would be only one with wagon - but I wasn't and man was I happy I had it.  I brought a lot of stuff and glad I did and was able to just wheel it behind me.  Today we had to park far away - but tomorrow we will be able to park closer.

32 students - I was very surprised at the female turn out - almost half the class.

First half of the day was theory, safety, and explanation of the course.  We did not start shooting until 1PM.  We watched 3 videos  - 2 from Massad Ayoob and 1 he took off youtube to compare releasing the slide with the your hand over vs hitting the slide stop.

With so many students - we had 2 sets of shooters - when set 1 was on the line shooting - set 2 was behind observing - and then rotated.  (he did not call them Set 1 or Set 2 - but for some reason I can't remember what it was)

My main P10C functioned flawlessly day 1 with S&B 115gr.  I saw a CZ P-07 and another P10C being used today and one of the Range Officers before they made them all wear red hats was wearing a CZ hat.

A lot of the drills followed this pattern - up on the line - practice dry fire the exercise they are trying to teach you, then 3 Mags of 6rds each - at 1/4 speed - then 3 mags of 6rds and 1/2 speed - then 3 mags of 6rds 3/4 speed and then 3 mags of 6rds of full speed.  A lot of repetitiveness in everything we did ALL day. 

We went over different stances, mag reloads, timed drills, sight pictures among other things.  Some of it was basics that if you have taken any course or shot for awhile you would know, but other stuff was more advanced and had to do with speed/accuracy and reloads.  A lot of it is because tomorrow at the end we will be doing a Police Style Qualification test at the very end.   

Tomorrow we work on 1 handed shooting in the morning - then afternoon will be a lot of different types of drills.  At the end Massad Ayoob and his RO will shoot the qualification course.  Then we will - IF you tie Massad he signs a dollar saying you tied him...IF you beat him (he usually scores perfect - so only way to beat him is score perfect and get tighter groups) he signs a 5 dollar bill saying you beat him.

We also are breaking into teams with 2 captains and when we do some of the drills they will score us against the other team (we all are putting $2 Dollars in a pot - TEAM with best score gets $32 bucks to split - the other dollar is for TOP shot of class who gets 32 bucks as bragging rights - I won't be top shot :P  Some very good shooters out there.)

I can't think of anything else right now and I should be heading to bed soon :P  I'll give my overall impression of the class after tomorrow.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:31:25 PM by QuickDrawMcgraw »

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 06:27:27 AM »
I took a 2 day class with Tom Givens a few summers ago. After 2 days of shooting in 95° heat, I was absolutely exhausted. Have fun and stay hydrated!

Offline Claymore504

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 07:59:47 AM »
Thanks for the Day 1 update. Sounds like a great course!

Offline QuickDrawMcgraw

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 10:48:02 PM »
Day 2 - 8AM - 6PM
Today only got to 89 degrees - partly cloudy - at times we had LOTs of wind - got lucky during my Qual and was calm.

This day was all about shooting!

Side note - I signed up for this class end of 2018 - and I had never taken any instructor taught courses of any substance - In the Army I only shot M16, M60 (ya I'm old), M249 and others - never any handgun.  I go to the range every weekend - and sometimes 2-3 times a week depending on what is going on at the range (steel shot, low light, and league).  Well I shoot okay, but never been taught holster draw or anything of real substance.  So I talked to my gun range and told them I wanted to be prepared for this Massad Ayoob class and not look like an idiot and waste people's time.  Well the guy that set the whole thing up has taken Massad Ayoob classes multiple times (along with others) - he tells me to sign up for what they called Skill Builder 1, 2, 3.   1 - basic knowledge 2. draw from holster standing still 3. draw from holster (moving and engaging close up and cover)  Now since this guy had taken a lot of Massad Ayoob courses - he teaches his classes very similar to Massad, same kind of stuff that I saw on Day 1 - so Day 1 I felt like a RockStar but I also felt like  - man did I waste my money.... Now Massad has a lot of knowledge - A LOT - but because I had already kinda of done DAY 1 with my gun club I felt 'cheated' I still learned, but I believe Day 1 is to gauge the students and teach them basics - we did have some people that should probably been better prepared - Well that all changed day 2....this class rocked and I learned a lot and got better over the 2 days for sure.  Long side not over.

Day 2 was about reinforcing what you had done on day 1 (Weaver, Chapman, Isosceles stances), trigger control, grip, sight picture, speed reloads
Day 2 also introduced a weak hand only, strong hand only, 3 crouching/kneeling positions, and also a bunch of different drills all timed and at different distances (having your hands trembling while firing, closing eyes after acquiring sight picture - pull trigger open eyes to see if your sight picture is still same, crouching, kneeling, both knees on ground sitting back on feet or but to ground)  I know I am forgetting a lot of other ones - Massad Ayoob called them StressFire Drills and he had a bunch.

One of the drills - Massad or a RO actually shot the gun with you - called the Exemplar Drill - putting their finger on your trigger finger - and doing 3 different drills really with it - you get sight picture and they feel your trigger pull, then they push on you finger and you finish, 3rd is similar to 1st but was diff - dont know how to explain - but was really helpful.  You can google Exemplar Drill and read about it in better detail than I am giving you.

We then practiced the Qualification one time - it was of things we had already been doing over the day.
FYI - Massad's Qualification is a mash up of a lot of other types of qualifications, some with tweaks - he keeps these qualifications on file - IF you ever have to appear in court Massad will present your qualification.  I won't go into all the legal stuff - that is actually the Sat/Sun law class that I will not be attending this weekend - I felt it was too much for me - I know it would be a ton of amazing info, I'm just trying to buy a reloader right now - so not in the cards.
Massad his wife and the Range Officers all shot it first - Massad got a 299/300 his wife 296/300 and the RO ranged from 260-292.
Passing is a 225/300 75%

I am happy to say I scored 287/300 - 95.66% lets not forget that 0.66 :P maybe could even round up :P

This grouping was my best of both days for anything I did - I do a lot of low/left and I know why...I also learned from this I like the Chapman stance better - before I was mostly isosceles stance with my strong leg back a little.  I also worked on my trigger control.

We were shooting IDPA targets - but they weren't scored like IDPA.  All center A is 5pts, A head is only 4 pts (he wanted all center), C is 4 pts and I think D is 3 pts - anything out side is -5.  I got 11 pts deducted from C (11 shots) and 2 pts (1 shot) deducted from D.

I did real good until the crouch/kneeling and the switching all 3 stances - stage 1-3 I was all on A's (it was closer distance :P)

The #2 on my target was because I was in Relay 2 - Relay 2 won the 2 bucks each with a higher average than relay 1.

Top shot was a guy rocking a P-07 appendix carry 300/300 and Massad signed a $5 bill for him since Massad got 299/300.  Guy in 2nd row kneeling in Red - Grizzly Adams.

High female shooter got 296/300.  I out-shot 3 of 4 of the guys that work at my gun range (I'm pretty happy about that) the one I didn't outshoot got a 298/300.

Btw Massad was shooting a Wilson Combat Beretta 92. (sorta see it in the pic below)

I had a GREAT time - I got a lot better - built knowledge, skills, some stuff to work on and a lot of confidence.  Massad shot my P10C if I didn't mention that yesterday - one of the RO really like my HBI trigger (plus all the rounds through it).

Once they post the group photo I'll prob update this and toss it in here - I'll be the big guy cheesing standing next to Massad.

Highly recommended!

Edited - ZERO issues with my main P10C S&B 115gr over 600rds shot during both days.

Side note 2 - I was able to pick up a couple Massad Ayoob Spyderco discontinued knives 2002 date...super awesome
















« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:21:55 AM by QuickDrawMcgraw, Reason: add group picture »

Offline Tanners Owner

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 09:00:21 AM »
Good reports- thanks.

Good to hear you did well on the “final exam”- good shooting and you are right to be proud!
Like a midget at a urinal, I'll have to keep on my toes

Offline holidaypf

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 09:45:01 PM »
Great report and great shooting!

Offline Mastodon

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2019, 06:50:27 AM »
Thanks for sharing.  Nice report.


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Offline Claymore504

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 10:47:13 AM »
Excellent reprt. Looks like a great class and you took away a lot!

Offline mjzman

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 10:53:18 PM »
Great report. My wife and I took MAG-40 in 2014. I see Ayoob has made a few relatively minor changes in the last five years. Overall scores were higher in your group-- ours highest was about 295 and my personal score was about 270. I was shooting a CZ-75 Compact and wife a 5-shot revolver. Since the CZ-75 required manual decocking I was scrutinized a bit more than most of the class who had striker fire guns. The second half of the course on laws, etc. was even more intense than the shooting portion and in many ways a greater benefit. I highly recommend it to anyone who has the opportunity.

Offline Smitty79

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 12:39:10 AM »
I'm glad I dsw this.   I am taking MAG 40 starting THursday.   I  didnt see s need for a mag pouch in the clsss equipment needs.  With all of those reloads, it would be helpful.
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline QuickDrawMcgraw

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Re: Massad Ayoob 2 Day MAG20 Live Fire course with my P10C (well 3)
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2019, 05:15:43 PM »
I'm glad I dsw this.   I am taking MAG 40 starting THursday.   I  didnt see s need for a mag pouch in the clsss equipment needs.  With all of those reloads, it would be helpful.

I had a double mag and a single mag pouch so 3 on my hip....made it so i wasnt carrying a mag to the line to start

On the qualification I had 3 on my hip and 1 in back pocket for each stage just in case I got a malfunction.

I used 9 mags throughout - while others were busy reloading - I was able to listen to Massad and hydrate or load some extra mags without worrying about time.

I had even more mags in my bag but only used 9 throughout.

If you want to preload some mags for class - ONLY 6rds per mag