Author Topic: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?  (Read 3101 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« on: July 23, 2019, 03:30:03 AM »
Hello.
I used the search button and found a lot of information, but it's all spread out and I can't seem to find a conclusion, so I'd like to make some points to start with, and hope it will be useful for anybody.

First of all, I shoot IPSC in Italy, so CGW bushing can't be used (I would be really curious about the improve in accuracy btw).

ANY technical information for 9mm will be REALLY HELPFUL. It hasn't got to be for Shadow2 if that's useful to know.

Too fast bullet -> too much recoil, so consider a maximum for the following bullets:

115 gr -> 1150 fps / 1180 max
124 gr -> 1100 fps max
135 gr -> 1000 fps max

Given that information, what would you look for to have the best group possible, at 30/50 yards?

The bare minimum would be a good group at 35 yards. It doesn't have to be perfect at 50, but I don't want to be the guy saying it's the gun and it's not me.


Some questions would be :

What bullet weight?
Which powder ? (does it have to be a slow burning rate powder to work better?)
What bullet profile/shape? RN, TC, FP, HP...
Hard cast vs copper plated vs color coated vs fmj -> What will be the difference?
OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?
What diameter? IE: 355 for FMJ, 356 for hard cast / color coated, etc...

Also, consider the gun has to survive past 50'000 rounds. So if shooting something like .358" hard cast would be good for accuracy but very bad for the gun, please add a note.

No factory rounds please.

If anything else comes in mind, feel free to post it.

[Mods changed title]
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 07:13:08 PM by Wobbly »

Offline chet45

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 08:50:50 AM »
  147gr flat point bullets seem to works on average the best in my shadow 2, with either Sport Pistol or Titegroup

chet

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 09:26:08 AM »
  147gr flat point bullets seem to works on average the best in my shadow 2, with either Sport Pistol or Titegroup

chet

Could you give some details? Like the best group you can achieve. That would help. I thought 147 gr would be the worst for a Shadow2 (especially for double taps)

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 03:53:58 PM »
You're very right to ask, because there's no need to re-invent the wheel, so to speak...

• If IDescribe were here he'd explain to you that the follow ups with 147gr are much longer than 124gr. 147gr shoot great, but IPSC is all about times. So there is time to be made on the follow-up shot. You might look up some of his posts here. Very informative guy.

• Accuracy starts with the bullet. Don't use anything but jacketed, and then only Zero 124gr HP or the Precision Delta 124gr HP. Both of which share load recipes and an OAL of 1.100" in most every CZ. If you buy 3000 PD and use the code "PD15", then they are by far the least expensive. Works out to be like $89/1000, which is unheard of for a premium bullet.

• You might research what has come to be called "the Angus load". You can search on that term forum wide. He uses VihtaVuori N320 under one of the bullets mentioned above. Do some testing between 3.9gr and 4.2gr. The Vit book says that's beyond max load, but your chrono will verify it's not. This powder checks all the boxes a reloader or competition shooter could ever want. You will think you died and went to Heaven.  ;D

• You'll want to ignite that with Federal #100 primers ONLY. (OK, you can also use Federal "Match".) The Fed primers are hotter insuring even ignition, AND they are by far the softest... meaning you can trick out your firing pin without worries. Winchester are a distant second place.


If you are using Dillon dies, they do not work well with the conical shape of the PD. Drop me a PM and I'll cut you a special bullet seating anvil you can drop into your Dillon seating die.

Hope this helps.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 04:00:21 PM by Wobbly »
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline George16

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 08:51:05 PM »
I had been using RMR truncated Flat point 124 Gr bullets with Winchester 231 but has since switched to Precision Delta 124 Gr JHP with 4.0 Gr Sport Pistol @ 1.120-1.125 OAL. PF was 128-132 out of my shadow 2 which I used to shoot in production division of USPSA. I shoot the same load on my 8” and 16” MPX in USPSA’s PCC division with great results. I use Winchester small pistol primers for all my loads.

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2019, 03:20:09 AM »
You're very right to ask, because there's no need to re-invent the wheel, so to speak...

• If IDescribe were here he'd explain to you that the follow ups with 147gr are much longer than 124gr. 147gr shoot great, but IPSC is all about times. So there is time to be made on the follow-up shot. You might look up some of his posts here. Very informative guy.

• Accuracy starts with the bullet. Don't use anything but jacketed, and then only Zero 124gr HP or the Precision Delta 124gr HP. Both of which share load recipes and an OAL of 1.100" in most every CZ. If you buy 3000 PD and use the code "PD15", then they are by far the least expensive. Works out to be like $89/1000, which is unheard of for a premium bullet.

• You might research what has come to be called "the Angus load". You can search on that term forum wide. He uses VihtaVuori N320 under one of the bullets mentioned above. Do some testing between 3.9gr and 4.2gr. The Vit book says that's beyond max load, but your chrono will verify it's not. This powder checks all the boxes a reloader or competition shooter could ever want. You will think you died and went to Heaven.  ;D

• You'll want to ignite that with Federal #100 primers ONLY. (OK, you can also use Federal "Match".) The Fed primers are hotter insuring even ignition, AND they are by far the softest... meaning you can trick out your firing pin without worries. Winchester are a distant second place.


If you are using Dillon dies, they do not work well with the conical shape of the PD. Drop me a PM and I'll cut you a special bullet seating anvil you can drop into your Dillon seating die.

Hope this helps.  ;)

147 vs 124 -> Good to know, so no more than 124 (that's what I expected)

Why jacketed and not hard cast, color coated or anything like that? I'd like to understand what changes. I think I won't find anything like Precision Delta / Zero or anything like that in Italy. Actually the most common jacketed bullet is a RN / Fiocchi or Frontier, the price is around 70€ / 1000 (about twice of hard cast bullets. Color coated cost about 55€ / 1000). Some JHP bullets cost 240€ / 1000 and that would be really too much for me. Some say the Frontier CMJ bullets work very well, but I can't tell if that's the common "it works fine so I'll keep using it". Very few shooters go for accuracy.

The most common shape is RN and the second most common is TC. I can find FP color coated if that changes anything.

I'd spend 80/90€ for big matches for accuracy but not so much more. So I'd like to understand how to reach the best result.

Some say no matter the quality, jacketed bullets is what most of these IPSC weapons are made for, so they will work better. Some say the opposite (hard to find the WHY yet)

Would the OAL change if I used 9x21 instead of 9x19? 1.15" / 1.16" is the most common OAL for RN bullets.

About the Angus Load, is it both fast and accurate? Would it work with similar burning rate powders like BP01 (I see it has the same burning rate of N320) or does it usually change a lot from powder to powder?

I don't know if murom primers are common there, but they cost a lot less (about half the price), they are soft and they ignite very well. Maybe they're not as even (again, would 10/15 fps change that much in accuracy?)


I'm trying to understand as much as possible. Thanks for any information

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2019, 11:33:08 PM »
I think I won't find anything like Precision Delta / Zero or anything like that in Italy.

Thanks for any information

My friend, information from you, like being located in Europe, might have been helpful at the outset.

In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2019, 01:48:13 AM »
I think I won't find anything like Precision Delta / Zero or anything like that in Italy.

Thanks for any information

My friend, information from you, like being located in Europe, might have been helpful at the outset.

Except for the bullets used in US, I thought anything else could be answered. Is the question too specific?

Also, I think the title makes it much harder to answer, unless the bullet itself is 95% of the accuracy
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 03:29:52 AM by deadsh0t »

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2019, 10:05:05 PM »
Except for the bullets used in US, I thought anything else could be answered. Is the question too specific?

Also, I think the title makes it much harder to answer, unless the bullet itself is 95% of the accuracy

None of the components we mentioned can leave the USA. You cannot order them. No one will ship them to you. If you fly here, you will not be allowed back into Italy with them in your luggage. So unless you're on a purely academic quest, this is all lost time.

And yes, great bullets are about 90% of the issue.

On the other hand, we have several Swiss and French shooters on the forum. They can tell you sources you can buy or order from in Europe. That's the object of the title change. If you don't appreciate the title, then change it back.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2019, 03:49:12 AM »
Except for the bullets used in US, I thought anything else could be answered. Is the question too specific?

Also, I think the title makes it much harder to answer, unless the bullet itself is 95% of the accuracy

None of the components we mentioned can leave the USA. You cannot order them. No one will ship them to you. If you fly here, you will not be allowed back into Italy with them in your luggage. So unless you're on a purely academic quest, this is all lost time.

And yes, great bullets are about 90% of the issue.

On the other hand, we have several Swiss and French shooters on the forum. They can tell you sources you can buy or order from in Europe. That's the object of the title change. If you don't appreciate the title, then change it back.

 ;)

I don't understand why anything else can't be answered. I didn't ask "what bullet should I buy?".

The main questions were :


What bullet weight?
Which powder ? (does it have to be a slow burning rate powder to work better?)
What bullet profile/shape? RN, TC, FP, HP...
Hard cast vs copper plated vs color coated vs fmj -> What will be the difference?
OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?
What diameter? IE: 355 for FMJ, 356 for hard cast / color coated, etc...

If I have to ask a question per post, I'll try to.

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2019, 08:16:27 AM »
What bullet weight?
Which powder ? (does it have to be a slow burning rate powder to work better?)
What bullet profile/shape? RN, TC, FP, HP...
Hard cast vs copper plated vs color coated vs fmj -> What will be the difference?
OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?
What diameter? IE: 355 for FMJ, 356 for hard cast / color coated, etc...

OK.

• 124gr
• Fast burning single-base. You want the powder to fall right at about 95% of Max Load so that you efficiently consume the powder. That makes for a highly efficient (cost & energy-wise) and ultra clean burn, and if you use single-base it will also run cooler.
• Usually Jacketed HP.
• In order of preference: jacketed, coated lead, plated. Although there are really good plated bullets, most are too soft to be really accurate. But lead can leave barrel deposits with the wrong setup, and that can destroy your accuracy faster than anything.
• Our testing shows you want at least 0.200 to 0.250" of the 9mm bullet seated into the case. We don't know why, but the proof is on the paper. An OAL that places the bullet near the rifling doesn't work in pistol.
• Most CZ's measure out at 0.3555", so 0.356" with jacketed and maybe 0.357 or 0.358 with lead or plated. You'll need to do your own testing on that. The problems with lead are multiple, and results vary widely from maker to maker.
• Crimp is covered in the Stickies at the top of the forum.


I would also add that once you latch onto good components, that quality of construction is VERY important. You want a very good press which is fitted with very good dies. You'll want your powder measure to drop loads repeatably within 0.5 grains all year long. You want your dies to have a seating stem that accurately holds and centers the bullet. A basic setup good enough for hobby shooting simply won't work when you enter competition.



After all that, then you need to inspect EACH cartridge using a cartridge gauge, before you pack it up to go compete. It's a very labor intensive process, that gets tuned and re-tuned over the first year, as you discover your ammo faults during competition. With a hobby press (as mentioned above), you'll simply need to allow more time for inspection. That's one way a substantial press pays for itself.



Reloading ammo is easy. Reloading REALLY GOOD ammo with zero errors takes time.

Happy ?  ;)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 07:18:08 PM by Wobbly »
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Shadow2 - Best handload for accuracy
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2019, 11:13:18 AM »
OK.

• 124gr
• Fast burning single-base. You want the powder to fall right at about 95% of Max Load so that you efficiently consume the powder. That makes for a highly efficient (cost & energy-wise) and ultra clean burn, and if you use single-base it will also run cooler.
• Usually Jacketed HP, but probably not for the reason you think. Most really good shooters are shooting 5000+ rounds per year. They simply don't want to breathe that much lead in fumes.
• In order of preference: jacketed, coated lead, plated. Although there are really good plated bullets, most are too soft to be really accurate. But lead can leave barrel deposits with the wrong setup, and that can destroy your accuracy faster than anything.
• Our testing shows you want at least 0.200 to 0.250" of the 9mm bullet seated into the case. We don't know why, but the proof is on the paper. An OAL that places the bullet near the rifling doesn't work in pistol.
• Most CZ's measure out at 0.3555", so 0.356" with jacketed and maybe 0.357 or 0.358 with lead or plated. You'll need to do your own testing on that. The problems with lead are multiple, and results vary widely from maker to maker.
• Crimp is covered in the Stickies at the top of the forum.


I would also add that once you latch onto good components, that quality of construction is VERY important. You want a very good press which is fitted with very good dies. You'll want your powder measure to drop loads repeatably within 0.5 grains all year long. You want your dies to have a seating stem that accurately holds and centers the bullet. A basic setup good enough for hobby shooting simply won't work when you enter competition.

After all that, then you need to inspect EACH cartridge using a cartridge gauge, before you pack it up to go compete. It's a very labor intensive process, that gets tuned and re-tuned over the first year, as you discover your ammo faults during competition. With a hobby press (as mentioned above), you'll simply need to allow more time for inspection. That's one way a substantial press pays for itself.

Reloading ammo is easy. Reloading REALLY GOOD ammo with zero errors takes time.

Happy ?  ;)
124 -> is it so the bullet won't travel at a transonic speed?
- Why do bullseye shooters use slower burning rate powders like N330 and N340? I'm looking to understand why. You're saying almost the opposite and I don't understand why is that. I don't even understand why they would use such powders.
- Well, I thought Jacketed HP would be picked for accuracy only. I shoot more than 20'000 rounds a year at the moment. Maybe 30'000. I wouldn't use them in training anyway, but I'm looking for the best accuracy I can get with a good price, so I don't know if there's a real difference between RN / TC or any kind of shape.
- How much leading can cause accuracy issues? Are 500/1000 hard cast bullets enough to cause enough leading to notice issues?
- So I should check the bullet length and calculate OAL accordingly


Is the second part you mention needed to maintain accuracy? Like using a Turret Press (not a progressive one) over a DILLON XL650?

I'm looking to find the accuracy some people speak about, like 3" at 50 yards, or maybe better.

Ammo that works, well, that's what I've already got and that's why I'm here. I'm trying to learn something more.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:21:14 PM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: European sources for competition Shadow2
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2019, 06:25:08 PM »
I thought you were an IPSC shooter. Now you want to talk about Bullseye.

Most shots in IPSC  are 6-8 meters, some as close as 1 meter. Bullseye is a whole different story.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: European sources for competition Shadow2
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2019, 07:28:50 PM »
I thought you were an IPSC shooter. Now you want to talk about Bullseye.

Most shots in IPSC  are 6-8 meters, some as close as 1 meter. Bullseye is a whole different story.

Actually I stated that in the first post. Maybe you're confusing It with USPSA. It's not uncommon to see targets at 25 yards and It can happen to shoot at 40

So, I'd like to start with a good group.

I want to talk about the same topic. What to do to have that accuracy?

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Competition load for 9mm
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2019, 05:35:10 AM »
I was given some new opinions and I'm not sure some are right.

Given the same muzzle velocity, does it matter what powder was used, or the bullet will travel the same way? I think the answer would be no, but there's who insisted that it wouldn't matter (so any powder would be good).

In case it's a no -> would slower rate burning powders work better? If yes, why? I haven't found an answer yet.

147 grains would be more accurate because a bigger part of the bullet would touch the riflings. Not sure that's how it works

Why should I avoid copper plated bullets at all? Is it due to manifacturing or anything else?

I found some Berry Copper plated bullets, 125 GR, .357" - They cost about 120€ / 1000 which is still a lot, but I can give it a try.

Also, there are some Hornady HAP 125 grains .356 which cost 160€ / 1000. I was told they would be one of the most accurate in the market (here in Italy).

I've also found Fiocchi .357" 125 GR SJSP, they seem to be copper plated with a lead tip. They are made for 357 since they have that crimp mark (I don't know how it's called).

And as last, .357" SWC hard cast (the manifacturer is known as the best in terms of hard cast at least). Any idea about it?


I'm considering to buy some of these but if you have any idea why that would be a waste (like : The gun won't feed SWC), it will be helpful.



 

anything