Author Topic: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?  (Read 3099 times)

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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9mm
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 03:11:59 AM »

Most common OAL used for CZ Shadow2 or 9x21 handguns in general is from 29.0mm to 29.5mm (1.141" to 1.161") for RN.

Really?!? - you wanna bet your life on that for a common length in CZ handguns?!?!

Read the sticky on how to determine OAL on YOUR gun and go from there.

You statement is extremely dangerous!!

Please don't come to the range when I'm there so there is no potential for me to get hurt.

Help me editing so it's easier not to misunderstand.

It's for 9X21, not 9x19, I thought it was clear.

Nobody has ever had any issues, it's perfectly under SAAMI / CIP standards.

If I picked up the same OAL I read here, maybe there would be no more slide.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9mm
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 03:15:44 AM »
1.140-1.160” OAL is pretty long for the chambers of the CZ’s I own.  But that also depends on the bullets profile and whether the ogive will make contact with the rifling or not. 

The OAL I use for 9mm is 1.125” and will chamber in all my 9mm pistols (CZ’s, 1911’s, PCC, Glocks, etc). I think the only pistol I own that will accept an OAL of 1.140-1.160” are my 1911’s, but I don’t want to have multiple loads, one for each gun. 

I haven’t seen much accuracy difference in OAL with pistol rounds (rifle, yes).  However how much you crimp, as well as how you crimp (roll crimp vs taper crimp) can make a difference in accuracy especially if you over do it.

Unless this is an academic exercise, I think you’re overthinking this.  Test some loads, pick one, print 20K or more, then spend the time dry-firing and live-fire practicing.

Again, it's 9x21 (I stated it in the same post hoping that would be clear. I even made comparisons with the typical OAL I read here and there)

Just to give another example to confirm it, typical OAL used by 1911 here is 1.22". Very few use 1.15" because it would be pretty short compared to the chamber.

This is not an academic exercise. I think my load is currently not accurate enough, and I want to improve my level. Why even suggest bad practice if there's a issue that can be solved with less time and resources?


deadsh0t,

What is your experience level with shooting IPSC and with reloading? Are you just starting out in both?

C

I started about 2 years ago with IPSC and about 3 years ago with reloading. I never spent time and resources on best components, I picked what was cheap and worked "decently".

I don't know how to tell you my current IPSC level and I think that shouldn't matter. I'd like to decide for myself. If any of the people here that can answer the questions and don't want to, it's their decision. But please, don't just say "you don't need it", thanks.

I'm not so stupid to pay 5 times the price for what I won't use. I want to reach that accuracy and judge myself what I need. I hope you won't blame me for that.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:20:30 AM by deadsh0t »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Competition load for 9mm
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2019, 08:26:55 AM »
It's for 9X21, not 9x19, I thought it was clear.


Oh dear. Let me change the thread title yet again !  ;D
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Offline Bossgobbler

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2019, 08:47:52 AM »
It's IPSC. You are chasing accuracy, Why?  80% - 90% of the targets are 25 yards and under. IPSC is a speed shoot = how many points you can get per second.  The time you would spend on a 50-yard target to get a 3" group would kill your score.  The "A" zone is 15cm(5.9)" X 32.5cm(12.8")

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9mm
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2019, 09:13:19 AM »
It's for 9X21, not 9x19, I thought it was clear.


Oh dear. Let me change the thread title yet again !  ;D

I don't understand if this is a race to make things harder for people to answer.

I'll take the time to read and understand what is made for 9x19. If there are only two people using 9x21 the whole thread is pointless.

I was just explaining what OAL I use and why.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2019, 09:24:55 AM »
It's IPSC. You are chasing accuracy, Why?  80% - 90% of the targets are 25 yards and under. IPSC is a speed shoot = how many points you can get per second.  The time you would spend on a 50-yard target to get a 3" group would kill your score.  The "A" zone is 15cm(5.9)" X 32.5cm(12.8")

Why is it so hard to understand? I want to start off with accuracy, and I'll find what's good enough to use for IPSC.
Plus, you can't shoot with a rest, so starting off with a 3" group at 50 yards will mean there's a lot of room for HUMAN ERROR to still hit the A zone.

Starting off with a 15" group at 50 yards will be enough to hit some misses at that distance.

And since there are matches where distances are at 35/40 yards, why would I inflict myself a disadvantage? Best IPSC shooters won't shoot ammo that doesn't work.


Do I really need to open a new thread without mentioning IPSC at all?

Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2019, 09:45:07 AM »
Sorry  -  In the US - 9mm refers to 9x19 NOT 9x21. 

Your questions seem to indicate you are very new to reloading.  You need to start with the basics and go from there.

Determine your OAL in YOUR gun with EACH bullet you plan to use.
Determine what powder(s) you want to try.
Create a load ladder for each powder based upon valid load data.
Shoot them over a chrono
Shoot them at a target using a GOOD rest.
Get a notebook and keep track of ALL the data!
Determine what load fits your criteria.
Buy in bulk those components.

What to buy - already mentioned several times - get ideas from others who have had good results in THEIR gun and try in yours.  EX:
 I just did this by asking about bullets for a 1911, 45ACP, in a Springfield gun, not concerned about power factor, just want accuracy.  I got answers and learned things.  I'll get some of the recommendation and test in my gun and go from there.  This testing will show how the bullet reacts in MY gun. 

You have already been given answers to how OAL affects accuracy.
You have been given answers regarding fast vs slow powders.
and all these questions have been answered:
What bullet weight?
Which powder ? (does it have to be a slow burning rate powder to work better?)
What bullet profile/shape? RN, TC, FP, HP...
Hard cast vs copper plated vs color coated vs fmj -> What will be the difference?
OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?
What diameter? IE: 355 for FMJ, 356 for hard cast / color coated, etc...

Now get the stuff, create some ladders and test.  Then you will have your answers.

PS - In 9x19 you don't crimp anything!  You just remove the bell.  From a bit of research it looks like the 9x21 is the same.

If you are not good at keeping track of details and paying attention to details, then reloading is not for you!

We are not trying to pick on you.  However a lot of details are showing up that should have been in your original post.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 09:57:03 AM by Dan_69GTX »
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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2019, 11:19:38 AM »
Sorry  -  In the US - 9mm refers to 9x19 NOT 9x21. 

Your questions seem to indicate you are very new to reloading.  You need to start with the basics and go from there.

Determine your OAL in YOUR gun with EACH bullet you plan to use.
Determine what powder(s) you want to try.
Create a load ladder for each powder based upon valid load data.
Shoot them over a chrono
Shoot them at a target using a GOOD rest.
Get a notebook and keep track of ALL the data!
Determine what load fits your criteria.
Buy in bulk those components.

What to buy - already mentioned several times - get ideas from others who have had good results in THEIR gun and try in yours.  EX:
 I just did this by asking about bullets for a 1911, 45ACP, in a Springfield gun, not concerned about power factor, just want accuracy.  I got answers and learned things.  I'll get some of the recommendation and test in my gun and go from there.  This testing will show how the bullet reacts in MY gun. 

You have already been given answers to how OAL affects accuracy.
You have been given answers regarding fast vs slow powders.
and all these questions have been answered:
What bullet weight?
Which powder ? (does it have to be a slow burning rate powder to work better?)
What bullet profile/shape? RN, TC, FP, HP...
Hard cast vs copper plated vs color coated vs fmj -> What will be the difference?
OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?
What diameter? IE: 355 for FMJ, 356 for hard cast / color coated, etc...

Now get the stuff, create some ladders and test.  Then you will have your answers.

PS - In 9x19 you don't crimp anything!  You just remove the bell.  From a bit of research it looks like the 9x21 is the same.

If you are not good at keeping track of details and paying attention to details, then reloading is not for you!

We are not trying to pick on you.  However a lot of details are showing up that should have been in your original post.

I asked some questions trying to understand more, but it was preferred to talk about other details that went off the rails

I can't understand if this is a joke or serious.

I asked about 9MM, REFERRING TO 9X19. I didn't ask about 9x21. I DON'T NEED TO. It's ok for me to do the math myself, and have access to more data (since nobody is reloading with 9x21).


I like your plan, what is missing is load data, or other answers I'd liked to have. I don't know why it seems like this thread should be a fight. I just asked for load data, and some questions. And it's became more about "you are dangerous", "you are new to reloading", "accuracy is useless in IPSC". Again, do I really have to create a more specific thread?

"you just remove the bell" is of course clear. And as I said before, I wanted to group data. I already do it. It's better for everybody to have everything grouped in one thread/post.

I started buying some stuff and I'll try that, but I don't have infinite money to just buy anything, so I prefer to start with that's good. To do that, I need to understand what works better.

For example, nobody ever named FP / TC, I don't know if that does make any difference. Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)


What does it mean "new to reloading" to you?


Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2019, 12:30:22 PM »
I asked some questions trying to understand more, but it was preferred to talk about other details that went off the rails

I can't understand if this is a joke or serious.

I asked about 9MM, REFERRING TO 9X19. I didn't ask about 9x21. I DON'T NEED TO. It's ok for me to do the math myself, and have access to more data (since nobody is reloading with 9x21).


I like your plan, what is missing is load data, or other answers I'd liked to have. I don't know why it seems like this thread should be a fight. I just asked for load data, and some questions. And it's became more about "you are dangerous", "you are new to reloading", "accuracy is useless in IPSC". Again, do I really have to create a more specific thread?

"you just remove the bell" is of course clear. And as I said before, I wanted to group data. I already do it. It's better for everybody to have everything grouped in one thread/post.

I started buying some stuff and I'll try that, but I don't have infinite money to just buy anything, so I prefer to start with that's good. To do that, I need to understand what works better.

For example, nobody ever named FP / TC, I don't know if that does make any difference. Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)


What does it mean "new to reloading" to you?

Not a joke!  Nothing to joke about when someone can kill themselves!

You stated "I didn't ask about 9x21"....um - yes you did!  You did ask or at least mention about 9x21 - in your previous post I responded too when talking about OAL.  Again - details!  You shouldn't have mentioned it if you are not referring to it - gets people confused!  Don't mention 2 cartridges in the same post!

Load data - good folks will not give you load data-  Ranges maybe - use the books and manufactures data to figure it out.  Use the chrono to determine if you are close.  Watch speed increases and SD to know if you are good or overcharged.  (if you don't understand this you are most likely new to reloading)  You have already been given names of a few good powders to try!!

You stated: ""you just remove the bell" is of course clear" but you mentioned in your first post "OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?"  That would be an appropriate question for rifle or something that requires a "crimp" (indicates new to reloading).

You stated: "For example, nobody ever named FP / TC, I don't know if that does make any difference. Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)"  You just answered your question!!! - Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)"  So, buy a few hundred, try different powders (say 1 fast, 1 med and 1 slow) and test it.  And you have already been given recommendations for at least 3 good bullets to try!!

"but I don't have infinite money to just buy anything" - if you can't afford to buy 3 1lb cans of powder and 300 each of 3 different types of bullets, then being concerned about your statement "Also, consider the gun has to survive past 50'000 rounds..." is a mute point.

I asked if you were new to reloading because your questions indicate you have not reloaded anything or much at all.  Which is fine if you are new - just state it - or at least if you are new to pistol, or... etc.

You have been given good recommendations - not sure what else you are looking for.  You have received recommended powders, how to determine OAL,  good bullets, you know how to find load data - what else do you want?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 12:34:44 PM by Dan_69GTX »
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If it goes "boom" or "vroom" I'm intersted.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2019, 03:14:29 PM »
So should I simply throw some stuff in here from my experience with 9x23Win... since it's all 9mm ??

I fully understand what you want, now that we finally dragged all the details out!! You should have simply told us all that stuff in the first post.

The problem is NOT 9x21... which we also have here. The problem we have is communication, and is due to a cultural difference. When you conceal facts which we believe we need to answer the questions we think you are asking, then it comes off as shady, deceitful, and dishonest. Americans can't abide that. (Our 20 or so Leftist presidential candidates tell enough lies to more than make up for the remaining 260 million of us !!)

Americans are helpful people. We TRUELY want to answer your questions, but when we spot an incongruity, we're going to stop the conversation and dig right there. In this way we can determine for ourselves if you are worthy of our trust and time.

Now don't get me wrong, we're not expecting to talk with the Pope about 9x21, but you'll get a lot more answers if you don't try to conceal information. Be up front. "Level with us." THIS IS WHY I KEEP CHANGING YOUR THREAD TITLE !!

Americans are not so ignorant of your culture as the press makes us out to be. Just last Spring I did a multi-week tour of the Amalfi coast and Sicily. I had to drag my wife home because she was getting seriously addicted to pistachio gelato. Everyone I met was truly gracious and very friendly. I'd seriously love the opportunity to return the favors.

If you want answers, then be up front and honest. If you want a LOT of answers, then change your screen name and icon to "Sophia Loren".  ;D


So, would you like to start a brand new thread, with a brand new introductory paragraph ?? Something like...

New member here with questions about pistol and cartridge performance in IPSC competitions. I'm in Italy where, due to antiquated legal requirements, I actually shoot 9x21. But this cartridge and its performance is close enough to 9x19 Luger for me to draw some very useful conclusions from your experiments and experiences....

Your call.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:19:39 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 03:06:01 AM »
I asked some questions trying to understand more, but it was preferred to talk about other details that went off the rails

I can't understand if this is a joke or serious.

I asked about 9MM, REFERRING TO 9X19. I didn't ask about 9x21. I DON'T NEED TO. It's ok for me to do the math myself, and have access to more data (since nobody is reloading with 9x21).


I like your plan, what is missing is load data, or other answers I'd liked to have. I don't know why it seems like this thread should be a fight. I just asked for load data, and some questions. And it's became more about "you are dangerous", "you are new to reloading", "accuracy is useless in IPSC". Again, do I really have to create a more specific thread?

"you just remove the bell" is of course clear. And as I said before, I wanted to group data. I already do it. It's better for everybody to have everything grouped in one thread/post.

I started buying some stuff and I'll try that, but I don't have infinite money to just buy anything, so I prefer to start with that's good. To do that, I need to understand what works better.

For example, nobody ever named FP / TC, I don't know if that does make any difference. Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)


What does it mean "new to reloading" to you?

Not a joke!  Nothing to joke about when someone can kill themselves!

You stated "I didn't ask about 9x21"....um - yes you did!  You did ask or at least mention about 9x21 - in your previous post I responded too when talking about OAL.  Again - details!  You shouldn't have mentioned it if you are not referring to it - gets people confused!  Don't mention 2 cartridges in the same post!

Load data - good folks will not give you load data-  Ranges maybe - use the books and manufactures data to figure it out.  Use the chrono to determine if you are close.  Watch speed increases and SD to know if you are good or overcharged.  (if you don't understand this you are most likely new to reloading)  You have already been given names of a few good powders to try!!

You stated: ""you just remove the bell" is of course clear" but you mentioned in your first post "OAL and Crimp -> Will they change the result so much?"  That would be an appropriate question for rifle or something that requires a "crimp" (indicates new to reloading).

You stated: "For example, nobody ever named FP / TC, I don't know if that does make any difference. Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)"  You just answered your question!!! - Some say TC work better than RN (at 25+ yards)"  So, buy a few hundred, try different powders (say 1 fast, 1 med and 1 slow) and test it.  And you have already been given recommendations for at least 3 good bullets to try!!

"but I don't have infinite money to just buy anything" - if you can't afford to buy 3 1lb cans of powder and 300 each of 3 different types of bullets, then being concerned about your statement "Also, consider the gun has to survive past 50'000 rounds..." is a mute point.

I asked if you were new to reloading because your questions indicate you have not reloaded anything or much at all.  Which is fine if you are new - just state it - or at least if you are new to pistol, or... etc.

You have been given good recommendations - not sure what else you are looking for.  You have received recommended powders, how to determine OAL,  good bullets, you know how to find load data - what else do you want?

I've read a lot of load data here and there for a lot of calibers. I didn't even ask specifically for ONE load data, but I tried to understand WHY (which is the harder part I guess), so it's repeatable. It's good to start with GOOD load datas.

As I stated multiple times, I wanted to include all the information needed in ONE post (for the crimp part)

Wasn't it easier to say "I don't know if TC work better"? That was as much as I knew. Some say they have more gyroscopic stability. It's easier to say "yes, they do work better at 25+ yards" and check it. Or it's the same as "go buy 10'000 bullets and try them all", since there are infinite type of shapes, lengths, weights, etc...

I bought the following bullets and I hope I will find some useful conclusion:

100 Hornady HAP 125 grains .356"
100 Fiocchi SWC 158 grains .357" (I think they're teflon coated. Does that hurt accuracy?)

First of all, I'll use the same powder I use, with at least 20 HAP bullets and see if anything changes.
Then I'll save some for VV N340 and N320 when I'll buy that and see if anything changes again.

I'll do the same with the 158 grains

Which questions make me a new reloader?

About the SD -> It depends on what I use. With the current match ammo I use, it is about 2-3 (in speed)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 03:27:35 AM by deadsh0t »

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 03:23:58 AM »
So should I simply throw some stuff in here from my experience with 9x23Win... since it's all 9mm ??

I fully understand what you want, now that we finally dragged all the details out!! You should have simply told us all that stuff in the first post.

The problem is NOT 9x21... which we also have here. The problem we have is communication, and is due to a cultural difference. When you conceal facts which we believe we need to answer the questions we think you are asking, then it comes off as shady, deceitful, and dishonest. Americans can't abide that. (Our 20 or so Leftist presidential candidates tell enough lies to more than make up for the remaining 260 million of us !!)

Americans are helpful people. We TRUELY want to answer your questions, but when we spot an incongruity, we're going to stop the conversation and dig right there. In this way we can determine for ourselves if you are worthy of our trust and time.

Now don't get me wrong, we're not expecting to talk with the Pope about 9x21, but you'll get a lot more answers if you don't try to conceal information. Be up front. "Level with us." THIS IS WHY I KEEP CHANGING YOUR THREAD TITLE !!

Americans are not so ignorant of your culture as the press makes us out to be. Just last Spring I did a multi-week tour of the Amalfi coast and Sicily. I had to drag my wife home because she was getting seriously addicted to pistachio gelato. Everyone I met was truly gracious and very friendly. I'd seriously love the opportunity to return the favors.

If you want answers, then be up front and honest. If you want a LOT of answers, then change your screen name and icon to "Sophia Loren".  ;D


So, would you like to start a brand new thread, with a brand new introductory paragraph ?? Something like...

New member here with questions about pistol and cartridge performance in IPSC competitions. I'm in Italy where, due to antiquated legal requirements, I actually shoot 9x21. But this cartridge and its performance is close enough to 9x19 Luger for me to draw some very useful conclusions from your experiments and experiences....

Your call.

I guess 9x23 is a bit different and so is 9x25 (I don't know them enough to tell).

What I know is that, to load 9x21, it's usually good enough to look at 9x19 tables and use the typical OAL suggested for 9x21. I thought naming it would make so much confusion it would drive the topic off (like it happened).

I didn't want to make it about "what should italian shooters buy". I can already ask to other IPSC shooters. And most of them would be average answers, and I would still load the same as I do right now.

I came here to improve my load, and learn something more in detail.

Also, I know it sounds easy to say "go buy Precision Delta FMJ" etc... but I'd like to understand WHY, so I can judge what I can buy by myself.

I'll explain this statement : If you tell me to buy those bullets, let's say they expire. I'd have to ask you again.
If you tell me "go buy precision delta, their weight has zero variations, their diameter is always the same, their shape is good for accuracy", I'd ask myself : OK, what can I buy which has the same qualities?

Do hornady HAP work better because of their shape? Because of their weight? --> I weighted about 20. They range from 125.02 grains to 125.18, at the moment. I've never seen that before. Does that change accuracy? Will I notice a loss in accuracy using bullets ranging from 124 to 126 grains?

I've never been to Sicily yet, I'll have to check if people are that friendly :D

I guess I'd have to start one without naming the rounds requirement (as Vogel says : if you want performance, you'll have to pay it somewhere -- not his exact words) and IPSC standards, except for the power factor. I'd really like to have a thread with useful information for everybody, where it's clear what to look for and where to start with, if aiming for accuracy (there's literally a lot of information and some of it is just too much, I think)

Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2019, 07:13:52 AM »
Hmmm - we are trying to help.  But for some reason you haven't listened to our answers, you try to refute our answers, and you think they aren't valid because we didn't explain why a certain shape bullet worked better.  I don't know why - they just do.

You have been given what you need - have a nice day!
Some trust in chassis, Some in Horsepower, But we trust in the Lord our God.

If it goes "boom" or "vroom" I'm intersted.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2019, 08:58:54 AM »
You'll have a hard time beating the Hornady HAP bullets. There are something like 5-8 bullet makers in the USA that have enough manufacturing volume AND precision in their process to achieve a homogeneous lead core and well-fitted jacket. By homogeneous I mean the CofG ends up on the physical axis, which allows their bullets to spin "true" on-axis.

Some of these makers are "first tier" or premium grade (like Nosler or Sierra), so you can't afford their product in volume. Hornady has a premium line (XTP), but is able to "straddle the fence" and offer their premium product in volume with their HAP line.


It's the density of the core plus the plating process that leave too much to chance as to why I would NOT choose plated bullets. In the plating process, to get the bullet coated in copper, the bullet is agitated in the plating bath. In theory the agitation is random so the copper is evenly dispersed. But, due to energy requirements to achieve excellent results, I think the copper is not as even as they would have you believe. And the slightly non-even copper displacement is just enough to ruin the accuracy. Even if the agitation is excellent, it is well understood that electrons will tend to travel more toward sharp corners than flat surfaces. So the plater is in trouble from the start. 

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

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Offline recoilguy

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2019, 10:11:30 AM »
practice more think less you will get accurate much faster that way
There is no magic bullet that will beat actually taking the time to get accurate.


I don't care you can be accurate with almost any bullet if you have consistency and practice correctly.

If not you will ask too many questions and find a way to wish you were more accurate.

Some people are better shots then others and just don't have the skill to get all Alphas...……

RCG
What I lack in speed , I make up for with inaccuracy