Author Topic: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?  (Read 1751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2019, 10:27:52 AM »
practice more think less you will get accurate much faster that way
There is no magic bullet that will beat actually taking the time to get accurate.


I don't care you can be accurate with almost any bullet if you have consistency and practice correctly.

If not you will ask too many questions and find a way to wish you were more accurate.

Some people are better shots then others and just don't have the skill to get all Alphas...……

RCG

I won't agree and this is no more than the typical -bad tip- "practice practice practice", which usually leads (more than not) to bad habits.

Having strong fundamentals (and equipment 100% accurate/working/reliable) is more important than practicing a lot more, and literally wasting more resources/time.

BTW that's what I noticed a lot of bad shooters did. They didn't take the time to stop and realize what was not working. They just kept practicing and achieved very little, even in a lot of years of shooting.

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2019, 10:34:33 AM »
You'll have a hard time beating the Hornady HAP bullets. There are something like 5-8 bullet makers in the USA that have enough manufacturing volume AND precision in their process to achieve a homogeneous lead core and well-fitted jacket. By homogeneous I mean the CofG ends up on the physical axis, which allows their bullets to spin "true" on-axis.

Some of these makers are "first tier" or premium grade (like Nosler or Sierra), so you can't afford their product in volume. Hornady has a premium line (XTP), but is able to "straddle the fence" and offer their premium product in volume with their HAP line.


It's the density of the core plus the plating process that leave too much to chance as to why I would NOT choose plated bullets. In the plating process, to get the bullet coated in copper, the bullet is agitated in the plating bath. In theory the agitation is random so the copper is evenly dispersed. But, due to energy requirements to achieve excellent results, I think the copper is not as even as they would have you believe. And the slightly non-even copper displacement is just enough to ruin the accuracy. Even if the agitation is excellent, it is well understood that electrons will tend to travel more toward sharp corners than flat surfaces. So the plater is in trouble from the start. 

 ;)

Ok, I've found some .355 Sierra Tournament Master, 124 grains, 20€ / 100 and the minimum will be 300. That price is really high (even higher than HAP rounds). Would it be worth it? I haven't seen Sierra named so much here and there in all the loads I've seen here (or in other forums).

Thanks for the explaination about copper plated, that's what I wanted to know. Too many people like to say "they work fine", but noone of them shoots from a rest or anything similar to judge it properly. And by "they work fine", it's an usual 6-8" group at 25 yards.

Offline recoilguy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
practice more think less you will get accurate much faster that way
There is no magic bullet that will beat actually taking the time to get accurate.


I don't care you can be accurate with almost any bullet if you have consistency and practice correctly.

If not you will ask too many questions and find a way to wish you were more accurate.

Some people are better shots then others and just don't have the skill to get all Alphas...……

RCG

I won't agree and this is no more than the typical -bad tip- "practice practice practice", which usually leads (more than not) to bad habits.

Having strong fundamentals (and equipment 100% accurate/working/reliable) is more important than practicing a lot more, and literally wasting more resources/time.

BTW that's what I noticed a lot of bad shooters did. They didn't take the time to stop and realize what was not working. They just kept practicing and achieved very little, even in a lot of years of shooting.

If you took a second to read what I wrote, you would see I said practice "CORRECTLY" That means having strong fundamentals and proper equipment. But you see something that contradicts what you want to hear so you call it a bad tip...………….

Its not a bad tip....its great advice, PRACTICE CORRECTLY! what happens next?   Is someone who (you) doesn't want to put in the work and is trying to get away with finding something to blame for their lack of skill.

good luck buying better scores,

Your logic certainly is not flawed …..do not practice - because you probably have bad form and will cultivate engrained bad habits, next bother  bunch of people on the internet who actually try to help folks and then constantly change the parameters. All the time hoping to find another lazy shooter who will say yeah this load will guarantee you a 2" group at 35 yards.

That's how all good shooters go about it. You tube is full of videos saying just find the right bullet and you don't have to practice you will be a sniper. Ben Stoeger,  Eric Grauffel, Max Michel, none of them practice correctly Heck they all just got a the right shaped bullet and next thing you know they are champions…. I would say good luck to you but you don't need luck you just need a good bullet.

RCG
What I lack in speed , I make up for with inaccuracy

Offline Wobbly

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9358
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2019, 09:19:36 PM »
Most of what you want has already been answered. Let's review...

• First and foremost I have to say, I agree with RecoilGuy. You cannot buy your way to a championship by building the "Uber Cartridge". It takes a lot of practice. Nothing can make up for good, CORRECT practice. If you want to make sure your practice is correct, then I highly suggest you take one of those action pistol classes from a Master. You can learn some tips by watching several YouTube vids, but those tips are usually only "scratching the surface". Vids are not going to correct your stance, your holster height, your belt tightness, or your vision issues. There's simply nothing like an in-person class with one-on-one time.

• Early on in this discussion I gave you the "Angus Load", but it seems not to have penetrated. Angus Hobdell is a moderator on this site and multi-time American and European action pistol champion. He once disclosed his load on this site and I gave that to you. He uses a Zero (brand) 124gr JHP over VihtaVuori N320.

Allow me to analyse those components for you...
- Jacketed because nothing else comes close. Jacketed simply fit the barrel more consistently lot-to-lot. Consistency = repeat-ability = accuracy. Hornady HAP is the closest bullet you've mentioned that I recognize. We recognize the Fiocchi name as being a very, very good component, but their bullets aren't available here so we can't comment. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. If the results are the same, then buy the cheaper component.

- Hollow Point (and here I bow to TdC's superior analysis) The instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the MOST critical part is to have a consistently shaped physical base on the bullet. The only way to get a CONSISTENT base is to have a meplat-filled jacketed bullet. That is to say, a jacket which is filled with lead from the nose end. Forget bullet shape (TC, HP, FP) and concentrate of the method of manufacture !

- 124gr because the twist rate of most 9mm barrels is cut for that weight range.

- N320 because it's burning at about 95% of its Max Load, which means it is burning super efficiently. It is also a single-base, so it's running cooler than a double-base powder. That means you'll also have less "throat erosion" in the barrel over time. It's throat erosion that generally (and quietly) robs a barrel of its accuracy. No doubt that there are many other powders available to you. The Nobel Sport Vectan BA series might be a less expensive equivalent powder. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. Test several powders and then use the most cost effective.

• There is continued discussion of OAL, and there should NOT be. "OAL" is what amateurs talk about. OAL contains, but masks, 2 critical features which first rate ammo MUST have. 1) The bullet must NOT engage the rifling. The simple test for this is to spin the cartridge in the chamber. 2) The bullet should deeply engage the cartridge case somewhere between 0.200" (5.0mm) and 0.250" (6.3mm). You should spend time reading our Stickies.

• You have mentioned "crimp" several times. It should NOT be in this discussion. Crimp is a function of your barrel. Crimp does NOT hold the bullet; however incorrect taper crimp can have an adverse effect upon the bullet and cartridge chambering. Again, you should spend time reading our Stickies.

• Finally, there is no replacement for 100% inspection of all the ammo you plan to compete with. As in any competition, the competitor is faced with things both in and out of his/her control. So the wise competitor  minimizes the total effect as much as possible by absolutely controlling every detail of those things within his/her control. This is intuitively obvious, but often overlooked.


Again, all your questions have been answered to the best of our ability. A good bit of what you're asking can really only be answered by you, using your gun on a target range with your pistol resting on a sandbag. In the USA we have a saying "the proof is in the pudding", meaning it doesn't matter how much or little you spend on ingredients, what matters most is how the finished pudding tastes, or in your case where the bullets hit on the target.

In the USA it is quite common for us to derive such answers by spending hours on a range doing side-by-side testing with the gun resting on a sandbag or other very stable surface. (And usually over a chronograph.) For instance two or more bullet brands loaded into otherwise identical cartridges. Many of us have such ranges in our back yards. It's not clear that you have such access, but let me assure you it is irreplaceable in honing your reloading skills and choosing components that will work for you.

All the best.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:42:38 PM by Wobbly »
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong?

Check out my reloading equipment for sale CLICK HERE

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2019, 12:45:13 PM »
practice more think less you will get accurate much faster that way
There is no magic bullet that will beat actually taking the time to get accurate.


I don't care you can be accurate with almost any bullet if you have consistency and practice correctly.

If not you will ask too many questions and find a way to wish you were more accurate.

Some people are better shots then others and just don't have the skill to get all Alphas...……

RCG

I won't agree and this is no more than the typical -bad tip- "practice practice practice", which usually leads (more than not) to bad habits.

Having strong fundamentals (and equipment 100% accurate/working/reliable) is more important than practicing a lot more, and literally wasting more resources/time.

BTW that's what I noticed a lot of bad shooters did. They didn't take the time to stop and realize what was not working. They just kept practicing and achieved very little, even in a lot of years of shooting.

If you took a second to read what I wrote, you would see I said practice "CORRECTLY" That means having strong fundamentals and proper equipment. But you see something that contradicts what you want to hear so you call it a bad tip...………….

Its not a bad tip....its great advice, PRACTICE CORRECTLY! what happens next?   Is someone who (you) doesn't want to put in the work and is trying to get away with finding something to blame for their lack of skill.

good luck buying better scores,

Your logic certainly is not flawed …..do not practice - because you probably have bad form and will cultivate engrained bad habits, next bother  bunch of people on the internet who actually try to help folks and then constantly change the parameters. All the time hoping to find another lazy shooter who will say yeah this load will guarantee you a 2" group at 35 yards.

That's how all good shooters go about it. You tube is full of videos saying just find the right bullet and you don't have to practice you will be a sniper. Ben Stoeger,  Eric Grauffel, Max Michel, none of them practice correctly Heck they all just got a the right shaped bullet and next thing you know they are champions…. I would say good luck to you but you don't need luck you just need a good bullet.

RCG

Interesting again how out of nowhere you talk like I have bad scores or I'm trying to buy skill with cartridges.

Interesting how you talk about these champions. They're the first ones to say you need a good round at START. Maybe you've never had the pleasure to read, talk or listen to any of them.

For example, Saul Kirsch says you need a 2" group at 50 yards. He's not the only one to say so.

Why are you constantly spending time trying to talk like you know everythig and everybody else is bad?

Offline deadsh0t

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2019, 01:01:47 PM »
Most of what you want has already been answered. Let's review...

• First and foremost I have to say, I agree with RecoilGuy. You cannot buy your way to a championship by building the "Uber Cartridge". It takes a lot of practice. Nothing can make up for good, CORRECT practice. If you want to make sure your practice is correct, then I highly suggest you take one of those action pistol classes from a Master. You can learn some tips by watching several YouTube vids, but those tips are usually only "scratching the surface". Vids are not going to correct your stance, your holster height, your belt tightness, or your vision issues. There's simply nothing like an in-person class with one-on-one time.

No practice will ever solve accuracy issues, if present. Thanks for the "class" tip, I'm not in the phase where I need one. I'll consider it next year maybe

• Early on in this discussion I gave you the "Angus Load", but it seems not to have penetrated. Angus Hobdell is a moderator on this site and multi-time American and European action pistol champion. He once disclosed his load on this site and I gave that to you. He uses a Zero (brand) 124gr JHP over VihtaVuori N320.

I saw that but, unlike recoil guy said, I wanted to understand why, not only "here's a random load used by a champion"
 
Allow me to analyse those components for you...
- Jacketed because nothing else comes close. Jacketed simply fit the barrel more consistently lot-to-lot. Consistency = repeat-ability = accuracy. Hornady HAP is the closest bullet you've mentioned that I recognize. We recognize the Fiocchi name as being a very, very good component, but their bullets aren't available here so we can't comment. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. If the results are the same, then buy the cheaper component.

- Hollow Point (and here I bow to TdC's superior analysis) The instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the MOST critical part is to have a consistently shaped physical base on the bullet. The only way to get a CONSISTENT base is to have a meplat-filled jacketed bullet. That is to say, a jacket which is filled with lead from the nose end. Forget bullet shape (TC, HP, FP) and concentrate of the method of manufacture !

This would lead to -> Jacketed bullets tend to be the most accurate.


- 124gr because the twist rate of most 9mm barrels is cut for that weight range.

I tried to investigate on the barrel twist rate and found no confirmation data that says that some bullets work better. In a 1:10" twist rate, any bullet from 100 to 160 grains will work properly. Maybe from 100 to 125 they might be too fast and lose a bit of accuracy (no confirmation about that, maybe it would be under 1/2" at 50 yards.
 
- N320 because it's burning at about 95% of its Max Load, which means it is burning super efficiently. It is also a single-base, so it's running cooler than a double-base powder. That means you'll also have less "throat erosion" in the barrel over time. It's throat erosion that generally (and quietly) robs a barrel of its accuracy. No doubt that there are many other powders available to you. The Nobel Sport Vectan BA series might be a less expensive equivalent powder. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. Test several powders and then use the most cost effective.

This will take a lot of time but I will give it a try


• There is continued discussion of OAL, and there should NOT be. "OAL" is what amateurs talk about. OAL contains, but masks, 2 critical features which first rate ammo MUST have. 1) The bullet must NOT engage the rifling. The simple test for this is to spin the cartridge in the chamber. 2) The bullet should deeply engage the cartridge case somewhere between 0.200" (5.0mm) and 0.250" (6.3mm). You should spend time reading our Stickies.

• You have mentioned "crimp" several times. It should NOT be in this discussion. Crimp is a function of your barrel. Crimp does NOT hold the bullet; however incorrect taper crimp can have an adverse effect upon the bullet and cartridge chambering. Again, you should spend time reading our Stickies.

Actually, some of my answers weren't read at all. My goal was to have a simple guide to have a competition load. I read both stickies.

• Finally, there is no replacement for 100% inspection of all the ammo you plan to compete with. As in any competition, the competitor is faced with things both in and out of his/her control. So the wise competitor  minimizes the total effect as much as possible by absolutely controlling every detail of those things within his/her control. This is intuitively obvious, but often overlooked.

In serious competitions I had no feeding issues or no malfuctions of any kind, I know that's an important point.


Again, all your questions have been answered to the best of our ability. A good bit of what you're asking can really only be answered by you, using your gun on a target range with your pistol resting on a sandbag. In the USA we have a saying "the proof is in the pudding", meaning it doesn't matter how much or little you spend on ingredients, what matters most is how the finished pudding tastes, or in your case where the bullets hit on the target.

In the USA it is quite common for us to derive such answers by spending hours on a range doing side-by-side testing with the gun resting on a sandbag or other very stable surface. (And usually over a chronograph.) For instance two or more bullet brands loaded into otherwise identical cartridges. Many of us have such ranges in our back yards. It's not clear that you have such access, but let me assure you it is irreplaceable in honing your reloading skills and choosing components that will work for you.

I'm not that lucky to have all that stuff. I am evaluating an easy way to create a rest, or it will be even harder to judge different components. Until now, I bought what seemed to work "ok" and was cheap

All the best.

Answers in blue

 

anything