Author Topic: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?  (Read 3100 times)

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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2019, 10:27:52 AM »
practice more think less you will get accurate much faster that way
There is no magic bullet that will beat actually taking the time to get accurate.


I don't care you can be accurate with almost any bullet if you have consistency and practice correctly.

If not you will ask too many questions and find a way to wish you were more accurate.

Some people are better shots then others and just don't have the skill to get all Alphas...……

RCG

I won't agree and this is no more than the typical -bad tip- "practice practice practice", which usually leads (more than not) to bad habits.

Having strong fundamentals (and equipment 100% accurate/working/reliable) is more important than practicing a lot more, and literally wasting more resources/time.

BTW that's what I noticed a lot of bad shooters did. They didn't take the time to stop and realize what was not working. They just kept practicing and achieved very little, even in a lot of years of shooting.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2019, 10:34:33 AM »
You'll have a hard time beating the Hornady HAP bullets. There are something like 5-8 bullet makers in the USA that have enough manufacturing volume AND precision in their process to achieve a homogeneous lead core and well-fitted jacket. By homogeneous I mean the CofG ends up on the physical axis, which allows their bullets to spin "true" on-axis.

Some of these makers are "first tier" or premium grade (like Nosler or Sierra), so you can't afford their product in volume. Hornady has a premium line (XTP), but is able to "straddle the fence" and offer their premium product in volume with their HAP line.


It's the density of the core plus the plating process that leave too much to chance as to why I would NOT choose plated bullets. In the plating process, to get the bullet coated in copper, the bullet is agitated in the plating bath. In theory the agitation is random so the copper is evenly dispersed. But, due to energy requirements to achieve excellent results, I think the copper is not as even as they would have you believe. And the slightly non-even copper displacement is just enough to ruin the accuracy. Even if the agitation is excellent, it is well understood that electrons will tend to travel more toward sharp corners than flat surfaces. So the plater is in trouble from the start. 

 ;)

Ok, I've found some .355 Sierra Tournament Master, 124 grains, 20€ / 100 and the minimum will be 300. That price is really high (even higher than HAP rounds). Would it be worth it? I haven't seen Sierra named so much here and there in all the loads I've seen here (or in other forums).

Thanks for the explaination about copper plated, that's what I wanted to know. Too many people like to say "they work fine", but noone of them shoots from a rest or anything similar to judge it properly. And by "they work fine", it's an usual 6-8" group at 25 yards.

Offline recoilguy

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
I won't agree and this is no more than the typical -bad tip- "practice practice practice", which usually leads (more than not) to bad habits.

Having strong fundamentals (and equipment 100% accurate/working/reliable) is more important than practicing a lot more, and literally wasting more resources/time.

BTW that's what I noticed a lot of bad shooters did. They didn't take the time to stop and realize what was not working. They just kept practicing and achieved very little, even in a lot of years of shooting.

If you took a second to read what I wrote, you would see I said practice "CORRECTLY" That means having strong fundamentals and proper equipment. But you see something that contradicts what you want to hear so you call it a bad tip...………….

Its not a bad tip....its great advice, PRACTICE CORRECTLY! what happens next?   Is someone who (you) doesn't want to put in the work and is trying to get away with finding something to blame for their lack of skill.

good luck buying better scores,

Your logic certainly is not flawed …..do not practice - because you probably have bad form and will cultivate engrained bad habits, next bother  bunch of people on the internet who actually try to help folks and then constantly change the parameters. All the time hoping to find another lazy shooter who will say yeah this load will guarantee you a 2" group at 35 yards.

That's how all good shooters go about it. You tube is full of videos saying just find the right bullet and you don't have to practice you will be a sniper. Ben Stoeger,  Eric Grauffel, Max Michel, none of them practice correctly Heck they all just got a the right shaped bullet and next thing you know they are champions…. I would say good luck to you but you don't need luck you just need a good bullet.

RCG
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:03:18 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2019, 09:19:36 PM »
Most of what you want has already been answered. Let's review...

• First and foremost I have to say, I agree with RecoilGuy. You cannot buy your way to a championship by building the "Uber Cartridge". It takes a lot of practice. Nothing can make up for good, CORRECT practice. If you want to make sure your practice is correct, then I highly suggest you take one of those action pistol classes from a Master. You can learn some tips by watching several YouTube vids, but those tips are usually only "scratching the surface". Vids are not going to correct your stance, your holster height, your belt tightness, or your vision issues. There's simply nothing like an in-person class with one-on-one time.

• Early on in this discussion I gave you the "Angus Load", but it seems not to have penetrated. Angus Hobdell is a moderator on this site and multi-time American and European action pistol champion. He once disclosed his load on this site and I gave that to you. He uses a Zero (brand) 124gr JHP over VihtaVuori N320.

Allow me to analyse those components for you...
- Jacketed because nothing else comes close. Jacketed simply fit the barrel more consistently lot-to-lot. Consistency = repeat-ability = accuracy. Hornady HAP is the closest bullet you've mentioned that I recognize. We recognize the Fiocchi name as being a very, very good component, but their bullets aren't available here so we can't comment. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. If the results are the same, then buy the cheaper component.

- Hollow Point (and here I bow to TdC's superior analysis) The instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the MOST critical part is to have a consistently shaped physical base on the bullet. The only way to get a CONSISTENT base is to have a meplat-filled jacketed bullet. That is to say, a jacket which is filled with lead from the nose end. Forget bullet shape (TC, HP, FP) and concentrate of the method of manufacture !

- 124gr because the twist rate of most 9mm barrels is cut for that weight range.

- N320 because it's burning at about 95% of its Max Load, which means it is burning super efficiently. It is also a single-base, so it's running cooler than a double-base powder. That means you'll also have less "throat erosion" in the barrel over time. It's throat erosion that generally (and quietly) robs a barrel of its accuracy. No doubt that there are many other powders available to you. The Nobel Sport Vectan BA series might be a less expensive equivalent powder. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. Test several powders and then use the most cost effective.

• There is continued discussion of OAL, and there should NOT be. "OAL" is what amateurs talk about. OAL contains, but masks, 2 critical features which first rate ammo MUST have. 1) The bullet must NOT engage the rifling. The simple test for this is to spin the cartridge in the chamber. 2) The bullet should deeply engage the cartridge case somewhere between 0.200" (5.0mm) and 0.250" (6.3mm). You should spend time reading our Stickies.

• You have mentioned "crimp" several times. It should NOT be in this discussion. Crimp is a function of your barrel. Crimp does NOT hold the bullet; however incorrect taper crimp can have an adverse effect upon the bullet and cartridge chambering. Again, you should spend time reading our Stickies.

• Finally, there is no replacement for 100% inspection of all the ammo you plan to compete with. As in any competition, the competitor is faced with things both in and out of his/her control. So the wise competitor  minimizes the total effect as much as possible by absolutely controlling every detail of those things within his/her control. This is intuitively obvious, but often overlooked.


Again, all your questions have been answered to the best of our ability. A good bit of what you're asking can really only be answered by you, using your gun on a target range with your pistol resting on a sandbag. In the USA we have a saying "the proof is in the pudding", meaning it doesn't matter how much or little you spend on ingredients, what matters most is how the finished pudding tastes, or in your case where the bullets hit on the target.

In the USA it is quite common for us to derive such answers by spending hours on a range doing side-by-side testing with the gun resting on a sandbag or other very stable surface. (And usually over a chronograph.) For instance two or more bullet brands loaded into otherwise identical cartridges. Many of us have such ranges in our back yards. It's not clear that you have such access, but let me assure you it is irreplaceable in honing your reloading skills and choosing components that will work for you.

All the best.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:42:38 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2019, 12:45:13 PM »
If you took a second to read what I wrote, you would see I said practice "CORRECTLY" That means having strong fundamentals and proper equipment. But you see something that contradicts what you want to hear so you call it a bad tip...………….

Its not a bad tip....its great advice, PRACTICE CORRECTLY! what happens next?   Is someone who (you) doesn't want to put in the work and is trying to get away with finding something to blame for their lack of skill.

good luck buying better scores,

Your logic certainly is not flawed …..do not practice - because you probably have bad form and will cultivate engrained bad habits, next bother  bunch of people on the internet who actually try to help folks and then constantly change the parameters. All the time hoping to find another lazy shooter who will say yeah this load will guarantee you a 2" group at 35 yards.

That's how all good shooters go about it. You tube is full of videos saying just find the right bullet and you don't have to practice you will be a sniper. Ben Stoeger,  Eric Grauffel, Max Michel, none of them practice correctly Heck they all just got a the right shaped bullet and next thing you know they are champions…. I would say good luck to you but you don't need luck you just need a good bullet.

RCG

Interesting again how out of nowhere you talk like I have bad scores or I'm trying to buy skill with cartridges.

Interesting how you talk about these champions. They're the first ones to say you need a good round at START. Maybe you've never had the pleasure to read, talk or listen to any of them.

For example, Saul Kirsch says you need a 2" group at 50 yards. He's not the only one to say so.

Why are you constantly spending time trying to talk like you know everythig and everybody else is bad?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:03:53 PM by Wobbly »

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load for 9x21mm
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2019, 01:01:47 PM »
Most of what you want has already been answered. Let's review...

• First and foremost I have to say, I agree with RecoilGuy. You cannot buy your way to a championship by building the "Uber Cartridge". It takes a lot of practice. Nothing can make up for good, CORRECT practice. If you want to make sure your practice is correct, then I highly suggest you take one of those action pistol classes from a Master. You can learn some tips by watching several YouTube vids, but those tips are usually only "scratching the surface". Vids are not going to correct your stance, your holster height, your belt tightness, or your vision issues. There's simply nothing like an in-person class with one-on-one time.

No practice will ever solve accuracy issues, if present. Thanks for the "class" tip, I'm not in the phase where I need one. I'll consider it next year maybe

• Early on in this discussion I gave you the "Angus Load", but it seems not to have penetrated. Angus Hobdell is a moderator on this site and multi-time American and European action pistol champion. He once disclosed his load on this site and I gave that to you. He uses a Zero (brand) 124gr JHP over VihtaVuori N320.

I saw that but, unlike recoil guy said, I wanted to understand why, not only "here's a random load used by a champion"
 
Allow me to analyse those components for you...
- Jacketed because nothing else comes close. Jacketed simply fit the barrel more consistently lot-to-lot. Consistency = repeat-ability = accuracy. Hornady HAP is the closest bullet you've mentioned that I recognize. We recognize the Fiocchi name as being a very, very good component, but their bullets aren't available here so we can't comment. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. If the results are the same, then buy the cheaper component.

- Hollow Point (and here I bow to TdC's superior analysis) The instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the MOST critical part is to have a consistently shaped physical base on the bullet. The only way to get a CONSISTENT base is to have a meplat-filled jacketed bullet. That is to say, a jacket which is filled with lead from the nose end. Forget bullet shape (TC, HP, FP) and concentrate of the method of manufacture !

This would lead to -> Jacketed bullets tend to be the most accurate.


- 124gr because the twist rate of most 9mm barrels is cut for that weight range.

I tried to investigate on the barrel twist rate and found no confirmation data that says that some bullets work better. In a 1:10" twist rate, any bullet from 100 to 160 grains will work properly. Maybe from 100 to 125 they might be too fast and lose a bit of accuracy (no confirmation about that, maybe it would be under 1/2" at 50 yards.
 
- N320 because it's burning at about 95% of its Max Load, which means it is burning super efficiently. It is also a single-base, so it's running cooler than a double-base powder. That means you'll also have less "throat erosion" in the barrel over time. It's throat erosion that generally (and quietly) robs a barrel of its accuracy. No doubt that there are many other powders available to you. The Nobel Sport Vectan BA series might be a less expensive equivalent powder. Again, you can most easily settle this for yourself in 10 minutes with side-by-side target testing from a sandbag. Test several powders and then use the most cost effective.

This will take a lot of time but I will give it a try


• There is continued discussion of OAL, and there should NOT be. "OAL" is what amateurs talk about. OAL contains, but masks, 2 critical features which first rate ammo MUST have. 1) The bullet must NOT engage the rifling. The simple test for this is to spin the cartridge in the chamber. 2) The bullet should deeply engage the cartridge case somewhere between 0.200" (5.0mm) and 0.250" (6.3mm). You should spend time reading our Stickies.

• You have mentioned "crimp" several times. It should NOT be in this discussion. Crimp is a function of your barrel. Crimp does NOT hold the bullet; however incorrect taper crimp can have an adverse effect upon the bullet and cartridge chambering. Again, you should spend time reading our Stickies.

Actually, some of my answers weren't read at all. My goal was to have a simple guide to have a competition load. I read both stickies.

• Finally, there is no replacement for 100% inspection of all the ammo you plan to compete with. As in any competition, the competitor is faced with things both in and out of his/her control. So the wise competitor  minimizes the total effect as much as possible by absolutely controlling every detail of those things within his/her control. This is intuitively obvious, but often overlooked.

In serious competitions I had no feeding issues or no malfuctions of any kind, I know that's an important point.


Again, all your questions have been answered to the best of our ability. A good bit of what you're asking can really only be answered by you, using your gun on a target range with your pistol resting on a sandbag. In the USA we have a saying "the proof is in the pudding", meaning it doesn't matter how much or little you spend on ingredients, what matters most is how the finished pudding tastes, or in your case where the bullets hit on the target.

In the USA it is quite common for us to derive such answers by spending hours on a range doing side-by-side testing with the gun resting on a sandbag or other very stable surface. (And usually over a chronograph.) For instance two or more bullet brands loaded into otherwise identical cartridges. Many of us have such ranges in our back yards. It's not clear that you have such access, but let me assure you it is irreplaceable in honing your reloading skills and choosing components that will work for you.

I'm not that lucky to have all that stuff. I am evaluating an easy way to create a rest, or it will be even harder to judge different components. Until now, I bought what seemed to work "ok" and was cheap

All the best.

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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2019, 06:55:59 PM »
I started trying stuff last two times. As expected, the hardest part is finding the best way to remove human error.

I noticed some differences anyway, especially with some bullets compared to others.

What worked the best for sure were HAP, but I haven't found the proper technique to see that kind of 2" group yet.

Some FMJ's I bought were much worse than color coated or plated bullets (Frontier, which have good feedbacks)

Could that be affected by 0.001-2 less crimp? It was about .379" and I shot them anyway. I had no feeding issues but that wasn't enough ammo to confirm it. Anyway:

For sure, HAP worked fine, but I couldn't come to a point where I'd say they are better than color coated I'm using.

I don't know if the powder I used wasn't good enough for plated bullets. 4.4 grains of CSB-1M (Maxam), which is pretty slow. Very hard to hit a popper at 30 yards. You could easily see hits spreading near the top of the target. I could hit it every time with color coated, even with a faster pace. 35 yards seems to be the distance where good ammo and bad ammo is divided into two groups.

Frontier bullets worked better with about 5.0 grains of VV N340 compared to 4.6. I think the best will be around 4.8 grains otherwise the power factor would be too high (135-140PF)

The best groups I've had were by shooting leaning over a tire but I could notice a little human error (in aming) anyway. That's what makes me thing it will be really hard to find the perfect cartridge.

Those FMJ bullets seemed to work worse with the powder I commonly use, which is a pretty fast one. Known as Frex Green (you can't know it, but it's the same as LOVEX D032 except for the fact that I have to use 0.3 more grains in summer/hotter seasons).

I'll try again for sure. At the moment, what I'm sure of, is that color coated + HAP bullets were the best. Very little difference in POI, for sure it was just vertically, so I could consider using some in a big match. 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2019, 04:09:54 PM »
The HAP is an excellent, Class A, Tier 1 bullet made especially for target shooters. You asked earlier if the Sierra bulletss were better, and I would have to say 'No'. The HAP is nothing more than the Hornady XTP defensive round, with all the final manufacturing steps removed. Those final steps are what transform the bullet from target to SD grade, and include fancy laser cutting and such. You don't need that, you only need a bullet that flies correctly.

On another note, a shooter from Belgium is using Geco 124gr FMJ RN. Since those are also jacketed, but don't need to travel halfway around the world, they might be the least expensive while providing all the accuracy characteristics you seek.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:19:55 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2019, 06:27:42 PM »
The HAP is an excellent, Class A, Tier 1 bullet made especially for target shooters. You asked earlier if the Sierra bulletss were better, and I would have to say 'No'. The HAP is nothing more than the Hornady XTP defensive round, with all the final manufacturing steps removed. Those final steps are what transform the bullet from target to SD grade, and include fancy laser cutting and such. You don't need that, you only need a bullet that flies correctly.

On another note, a shooter from Belgium is using Geco 124gr FMJ RN. Since those are also jacketed, but don't need to travel halfway around the world, they might be the least expensive while providing all the accuracy characteristics you seek.

Maybe I'll bring with me about 150 rounds with HAP

A shop here was selling Geco FMJ for 28€ / 500 which is an insane price. In fact they didn't last longer than few days in the shop (I thought it was a mistake). That is about the same price as coated. If they will be back at the same price, I'll probably buy 10'000 at least, since I won't find such prices for a long time. I'll buy 500 at 38€ which is a fair price so I can try them.

I don't know what distance he's shooting at, but the common mistake is to think that IPSC is about shooting at 15 yards while real competitions have a lot of targets past 30 yards (and maybe even 40-50) so there will be a difference at such distances

Offline Joe L

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2019, 06:06:07 AM »
Deadshot--Are you going to be bench testing with a red dot sight or open iron sights?  Open versus production IPSC division? 

Reason I ask is that I have consistently better results from a rest using a 2 or 3 moa red dot.  I can shoot open sight fairly well, at times, like on a cloudy day when there isn't any sun glare on the sights, but a red dot with an aim point slightly larger than the dot works best for me at 50 yards plus. 

Are you going to test from a bench using a wrist rest or a dust cover rest?  If a dust cover rest, how is your grip/wrists going to be stabilized?  I've tried several methods of shooting from a rest and have had the best results using a wrist rest only, elbows on the table, wrist elevation set to eye sight level, nothing touching the gun, red dot.  I have several CZ's in 9mm that are good for under 2" at 50 yards.  It took me a while to learn how to shoot them that well though.  Most of my shooting experience is with bullseye, not run and gun, so my needs and techniques may not be useful for testing run and gun ammo/pistol combinations.  I can pull the trigger without moving the gun much, on most days, however.

Best of luck to you in your testing.  I have a hard enough time being consistent with one pistol and one ammo, so I would have a tough time determining cause and effect for hand loads variations.

Joe 
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2019, 11:52:49 AM »
Deadshot--Are you going to be bench testing with a red dot sight or open iron sights?  Open versus production IPSC division? 

Reason I ask is that I have consistently better results from a rest using a 2 or 3 moa red dot.  I can shoot open sight fairly well, at times, like on a cloudy day when there isn't any sun glare on the sights, but a red dot with an aim point slightly larger than the dot works best for me at 50 yards plus. 

Are you going to test from a bench using a wrist rest or a dust cover rest?  If a dust cover rest, how is your grip/wrists going to be stabilized?  I've tried several methods of shooting from a rest and have had the best results using a wrist rest only, elbows on the table, wrist elevation set to eye sight level, nothing touching the gun, red dot.  I have several CZ's in 9mm that are good for under 2" at 50 yards.  It took me a while to learn how to shoot them that well though.  Most of my shooting experience is with bullseye, not run and gun, so my needs and techniques may not be useful for testing run and gun ammo/pistol combinations.  I can pull the trigger without moving the gun much, on most days, however.

Best of luck to you in your testing.  I have a hard enough time being consistent with one pistol and one ammo, so I would have a tough time determining cause and effect for hand loads variations.

Joe

Production gun (CZ Shadow2) with iron sights

After you placed your wrists, do you just shoot without looking at the sights, or do you move the gun to always check for their alignment? I think I introduced a human error with sights alignment. Last time I tried, the least movement and best group (not 2" anyway) was when I put my wrists over a tire. I don't know what to look for (a rest, or anything else) to remove human error as much as possible.

I think my trigger pull error is minimal compared to anything else. My muscles are not good enough for accurate shots at such distances. I can probably hit a popper at 50 yards but I can't place a bet on it, since the gun is wobbling while I hold it (I think it's more than what would be good for any sub 4" group at 50 yards).

Offline Joe L

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2019, 01:57:48 PM »
Deadshot--

Here are some videos I made of me shooting various pistols from a rest at 100 and 200 yards.  Several of the videos show how I grip the gun and how I support my wrists.  I will put a 4x4 block and sometimes an ammo box on the bench, then a soft towel, and then try to get the seat height right so that I am not scrunched over when aiming the gun.  If the table is low, I will use 8-12" of support height for the wrist rest. 

For me, the group size is pretty much determined by how well I can duplicate the dot placement for every shot.  Some days are better than others.  I think there are 75B and P-09 videos with groups under 4" in the playlist below.  (at 100 yards).  Maybe these will give you some ideas. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes

Joe

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline Joe L

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2019, 04:35:56 PM »
Deadshot--as far as sighting with iron sights...

If you have a wrist rest at an elevation that is comfortable for you to sight through to the target, I grip the gun tightly with two hands, put some pressure on the trigger, then line up the sights, and add pressure as the sight alignment becomes perfect without changing the tension in any other muscles.  So, I keep looking at the front sight as I bring the gun in to the "perfect" position. 

The reason I don't want to rest the gun on anything is that aiming the gun requires pressure against the rest, and that changes the tension in the hands and wrists enough to make it more likely for me to move the gun out of alignment as I move the trigger the last little bit.  I don't want to have to change the pressure on the rest/support to get the sight alignment with the target that I want.

I used to tape cardboard shields on the sides of the slide to keep the sun off the front and rear sights in the morning or late afternoon.  The glare of the side of the sight will make you misjudge the position of the post relative to the rear sight slot.  I've also added 0.010" shim stock to the sides of the front sight to make them wider to fill the rear slot and make it easier to center the post in the rear slot, then added a scratch in the center of the rear face of the front sight to give me a reference point for aiming.  Then I went to red dots and lost all of my open sight skills! 

I just got home from shooting 25 yard bullseye practice with the P-10F, in the wind, single handed standing.  That was a challenge.  The gun is always wobbling single handed standing.  Worse on windy days.  Forcing the shot never works.  I have to remind myself to accept the wobble, and execute a smooth steady trigger pull instead of forcing the shot.  From a rest, the wobble is much less, but still there, and I do fine if I DON'T force the shot.  I intentionally set my triggers at 3-4 lb pull weight so that I can apply some pressure to the trigger to steady the gun without it going off prematurely.  No 2 lb triggers for me, even in a .22.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2019, 03:33:26 AM »
Deadshot--

Here are some videos I made of me shooting various pistols from a rest at 100 and 200 yards.  Several of the videos show how I grip the gun and how I support my wrists.  I will put a 4x4 block and sometimes an ammo box on the bench, then a soft towel, and then try to get the seat height right so that I am not scrunched over when aiming the gun.  If the table is low, I will use 8-12" of support height for the wrist rest. 

For me, the group size is pretty much determined by how well I can duplicate the dot placement for every shot.  Some days are better than others.  I think there are 75B and P-09 videos with groups under 4" in the playlist below.  (at 100 yards).  Maybe these will give you some ideas. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes

Joe

Joe

Thanks, i'll check it and take notes.


Deadshot--as far as sighting with iron sights...

If you have a wrist rest at an elevation that is comfortable for you to sight through to the target, I grip the gun tightly with two hands, put some pressure on the trigger, then line up the sights, and add pressure as the sight alignment becomes perfect without changing the tension in any other muscles.  So, I keep looking at the front sight as I bring the gun in to the "perfect" position. 

The reason I don't want to rest the gun on anything is that aiming the gun requires pressure against the rest, and that changes the tension in the hands and wrists enough to make it more likely for me to move the gun out of alignment as I move the trigger the last little bit.  I don't want to have to change the pressure on the rest/support to get the sight alignment with the target that I want.

I used to tape cardboard shields on the sides of the slide to keep the sun off the front and rear sights in the morning or late afternoon.  The glare of the side of the sight will make you misjudge the position of the post relative to the rear sight slot.  I've also added 0.010" shim stock to the sides of the front sight to make them wider to fill the rear slot and make it easier to center the post in the rear slot, then added a scratch in the center of the rear face of the front sight to give me a reference point for aiming.  Then I went to red dots and lost all of my open sight skills! 

I just got home from shooting 25 yard bullseye practice with the P-10F, in the wind, single handed standing.  That was a challenge.  The gun is always wobbling single handed standing.  Worse on windy days.  Forcing the shot never works.  I have to remind myself to accept the wobble, and execute a smooth steady trigger pull instead of forcing the shot.  From a rest, the wobble is much less, but still there, and I do fine if I DON'T force the shot.  I intentionally set my triggers at 3-4 lb pull weight so that I can apply some pressure to the trigger to steady the gun without it going off prematurely.  No 2 lb triggers for me, even in a .22.

Joe

I understand the first part. I also know that resting the gun will change the POI since recoil starts in the barrel

I'm trying to understand how to do that part. I'm thinking about modifying the Shadow2 rear sight anyway, too much light for accurate shots past 25 yards in my opinion

Is the P-10F accurate out of the box? I'm curious about it

I like a light trigger pull, that's what worked best for me, too heavy means more time/errors in my case
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 03:46:36 AM by deadsh0t »

Offline Joe L

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Re: Competition load: What works in 9mm and why ?
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2019, 07:28:42 AM »

I understand the first part. I also know that resting the gun will change the POI since recoil starts in the barrel

I'm trying to understand how to do that part. I'm thinking about modifying the Shadow2 rear sight anyway, too much light for accurate shots past 25 yards in my opinion

Is the P-10F accurate out of the box? I'm curious about it

I like a light trigger pull, that's what worked best for me, too heavy means more time/errors in my case

I couldn't narrow the rear sight slot width as easily as I could fatten up the sides of the front sight with some epoxy and shim stock, or just buy a wider front sight if you can find one.


I understand about trigger preference for light versus heavy.  For me and my old muscles and coordination, being able to apply pressure to the trigger without it going off works better than going from no trigger finger tension to enough to move the sear off the hammer.  It's just me. 

The standard for accuracy at my house is my first P-09 hammer gun with CGW trigger parts.  Consistently sub 2" at 50 yards and was my bullseye match gun until I went to a 97.  The P-10F seems to have been built to the same tolerances and I have some great targets with it at 50 and 100 yards.  I don't have enough experience with it to say that it is equal to the P-09.  My 75B with a CGW 10x bushing is definitely the equal to the P-09, and may be even a little better, as I believe the best 50 yard rest group is 1-1/8", with a sub 4" at 100 yards. 

The reason I can't tell which one is the best is that human error thing you bring up.  I can't shoot the P-10F, 75B, and P-09 equally well on any given day.  I need maybe 20 rounds with one gun to get my rest technique and trigger pull and sighting perfect before I expect to shoot a great group, or at least as good of a group as I am capable of that day.  For me, I know the gun and ammo combination is perfect, and that the variables left are me and my ability to place the dot exactly the same for each shot, and then to move the trigger without moving the gun.  For me, shooting from a rest is a discipline that takes a lot of practice, just like run and gun or bullseye.  I'm still working on it, without ever changing the gun/sight/ammo combination. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

 

anything