Author Topic: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?  (Read 813 times)

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Offline charlielikesczs

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maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« on: August 11, 2019, 06:25:57 PM »


It was a beautiful day in western Pennsylvania today. I took my two sons (26 and 19) to the range. I am getting old and therefore becoming as blind as Benny (Red Fox)on the movie Harlem Nights so please be nice. I also do not compete nor do i claim to be a good shot.  Pics are of  two targets each with the shadow2, sig p226, and the Beretta 92a1 from 15 yards. Just cheap 115 grain factory ammo.
The S2 is bone stock (except for the grips-CGW) and i aim to keep it that way. Same shooter, same ammo,same day but much different results as you can see. Printed targets were up first and i began to get shaky with the dirty bird targets. The Sig kinda held its own but the beretta was all over the map. Question is do you think the gun matters THAT much or maybe just confidence with a particular firearm? 2nd pic is a close up of the first S2 target 24 rounds.

Offline charlielikesczs

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2019, 06:28:30 PM »

Offline Choatecav

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 07:23:05 PM »
Hello Charlie,

Not sure how often you shoot, but if not that frequently, it could have been a bit of shooters fatigue as you kept going through the process.
However, I own all three of those myself and they each shoot, feel and sight very much differently.  I tend to think it is more the change from one to the next.  Once you started getting "in a groove" you switched.  All are very accurate weapons but it is tough to switch from one to the other and make all of the needed adjustments.
Mark Choate

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 07:28:08 PM »
Sometimes is it the gun.

When I first bought a plastic pistol it was a Glock M31.  I kept trying to get decent groups with that thing and my nephew would look at me and ask me what was wrong, if I was just having a bad day.  I finally started taking the Colt 1911 with me and when he'd start talking about me having a bad day I'd pull the Colt out, shoot a decent target and then put the Glock away, again.

Same with my new M&P 2.0 5" awhile back.  I've got 4 or 5 different bullet weighs/bullet types sitting on the table trying to find something that will shoot decent groups in the 5" FDE 9MM.  And getting frustrated over it.



At the end I pull my P07 .40 out of the holster under my shirt and put five hot 135 grain hollow points into the paper.



I go home figuring I need to find a load that the M&P will shoot better (now I'm getting somewhere, but it's a factory load and I need to try and duplicate it with my reloads - fast, maybe +P 124 grain bullet - the Winchester 124 grain FMJ NATO ammo).

Sometimes you get a pistol (or rifle) that needs some help.  Either through parts replacement or load development.
I stopped carrying the SIG 556R.  SIG changed models and couple/three times and stopped supporting it with parts.  So, I stopped supporting SIG.  Back to the tried/true AR15 Carbine.

Offline Vinny

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 08:27:39 PM »
M1A4ME.......Hmmm, so where is the Glock now???
Maybe your P-07 is trying to tell you something.   ::)  Nice group BTW!
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline MadDuner

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 09:19:08 PM »
Yesterday was a breakthrough day for me and my P-07.  I have to actually grip it differently then I do my other CZs.  I experimented more yesterday and finally figured it out.  The groups went went to about 1/3 size with the change.  I tried the same grip with the others and it was a failure.  So now I know that I have to shoot it differently than the others.

Offline Vinny

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 10:16:13 PM »
Some guns just fit, and others don't. Even identical guns can have different personalities. Grip, trigger, ammo, spring variations, timing, etc.
But when you finally find the right combination.....cherish it!
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline Europe

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 04:04:53 AM »
The p.07 target is really nice. It was 25 yards?

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 07:04:49 AM »
Grip is important.  Consistency of grip.  If the pistol moves around in your hand you're not going to shoot good groups with it.  Just like a rifle.  If your cheek/eye moves around behind the rear sight/scope, you won't shoot good groups with it.

The Glock is in the safe.  I'll give it to one of the kids, some day.  Along with the XDMs and the M&Ps and the Browning BDM (I even put two of my Colt 1911's in the safe.)  And, when I'm gone, they can argue over the CZs.

While fitting your hand and feeling good in your hand is wonderful and (I believe) very helpful in shooting well it doesn't mean the gun is going to shoot good groups.  The "block" never fit me.  I put a grip force adaptor on the back of the frame.  I removed the bumps on the front that my fingers sat on top of instead of between.  I relieved the underside of the trigger guard next to the frame.  I bought an XDM.

The XDM felt good in my hand and shot better than the Glock - but it should have.  It was a 5.25" Competition model 9MM.  But it never shot to my expectations.  I bought a 3.8 XDM for carry and even the 3.8" XDM shot better groups than the bigger competition model.

Then I bought a 9MM M&P because it fit my hand like it was made for me.  Never, ever got acceptable groups from the M&P.  Got another one in .40 and put a S&W .357 SIG barrel in it.  Never got good groups from it either.

Then I bought that DUTY P07 in .40 S&W and had it all.  Hand fit/feel, reliability, accuracy.

I've bought (for myself) two non CZ pistols in the last 8 years.  Neither will shoot groups with the CZs.  Does every CZ shoot as well as the best shooting ones?  Nope.  Can you improve them?  Sure, with money and effort.  Is it worth it?  That's up to you, the owner/shooter.
I stopped carrying the SIG 556R.  SIG changed models and couple/three times and stopped supporting it with parts.  So, I stopped supporting SIG.  Back to the tried/true AR15 Carbine.

Offline charlielikesczs

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 07:33:10 PM »
Thanks for the input and tips as always gentlemen. i believe you guys hit the nail on the head. Equal parts of  1. I need to shoot alot more often 2. fatigue 3. switching back and forth with different guns 4. the Beretta is a paper weight until i can get some cash for LTT upgrades on the stock trigger.

Offline miller_man

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 07:50:17 PM »
Technically, pushing the trigger straight back without disrupting the sights and all those guns will easily shoot about 1" at 15yds.

So yes, it is you - not the gun.

Now, every person is different and each gun fits differently, etc., yaddy yadda yadda.
List of guns here?

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 08:55:06 PM »
I'll have to disagree with that statement.  Few pistols are capable of 1" groups at 15 yds. right out of the box.  I've got enough different brands/models/calibers to have experienced good accuracy vs. poor accuracy.

My new M&P had a pretty awful trigger (5" 2.0 in FDE and 9MM).  Bad.  I wasn't happy about the groups either.  Every CZ I've got shot better groups.  I spent about $165 on an APEX trigger kit and installed it and doggone it that's a sweet trigger.  Absolutely better than any striker fired pistol I've every shot and better than some of the hammer fired guns.  But the groups didn't change.  So I spent $190 on a APEX trigger and the groups improved till they about as good as some my average CZ's.  The really nice trigger didn't help.  The higher quality barrel did, a lot.
I stopped carrying the SIG 556R.  SIG changed models and couple/three times and stopped supporting it with parts.  So, I stopped supporting SIG.  Back to the tried/true AR15 Carbine.

Offline Vinny

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 09:23:43 PM »
I'll have to disagree with that statement.  Few pistols are capable of 1" groups at 15 yds. right out of the box.  I've got enough different brands/models/calibers to have experienced good accuracy vs. poor accuracy.

My new M&P had a pretty awful trigger (5" 2.0 in FDE and 9MM).  Bad.  I wasn't happy about the groups either.  Every CZ I've got shot better groups.  I spent about $165 on an APEX trigger kit and installed it and doggone it that's a sweet trigger.  Absolutely better than any striker fired pistol I've every shot and better than some of the hammer fired guns.  But the groups didn't change.  So I spent $190 on a APEX trigger and the groups improved till they about as good as some my average CZ's.  The really nice trigger didn't help.  The higher quality barrel did, a lot.
Yes, and then to get the tightest groups there's also ammo. Every gun seems to perform best with something different. I keep a log and note which ammo seems to perform best; to refer back to later.
And of course that will also depend on if I'm shooting slow for bulls-eye, or fast where I want it to cycle fast and flat. And really, isn't that the process we enjoy most...wringing the very best from the gun, ammo, and shooter.  O0  Makes MY day!
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline Joe L

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 09:31:52 AM »
Charlie,

I think the other responses have you covered, but I will share my experience with a variety of pistols.  I have long fingers so need to increase the reach to the trigger on most factory guns.  I do this very aggresively using Sugru on the grips of polymer guns fatten them up and/or aftermarket grip panels on the steel guns.  Then I add material to the front of the triggers.  My pistols look like abominations but I am fairly consistent with several models. 

I do not shoot any flat sided grip "service" pistol well initially, just because I can't get a lot of contact area on the flat sides of the grip.  When I ovalize the grip and fatten them up, a lot of the inconsistency goes away.  So this is just my experience, shooting mainly single handed standing, bullseye style.  I seem to be able to adapt to most triggers pretty well, as long as I can get the reach right and the grip contact and shape right.  For me, the secret is matching the gun to the shooter, physically.  Some guns require more work than others, and that match or lack thereof affects group size, especially with little trigger time with a specific pistol. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline charlielikesczs

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Re: maybe it is the gun and not so much the shooter?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2019, 08:13:02 PM »
Thanks for the input Joe. I think the inverse may be true in my case. I have short fat sausage fingers and I have always seem to shoot better with CZ's than say a Sig 226 or Beretta which both have chunkier grips. I've never really put 2 and 2 together on that though. makes sense.