Author Topic: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF  (Read 2446 times)

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Offline TdC

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Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« on: August 21, 2019, 03:19:59 PM »
Hey everyone,

I reload about 1.5 years now for my SP01 shadow. Loaded 10000 rounds so far - still an absolute novice - I know.
I started with components recommended to me by my fellow club members (147gr plated). However after a lot of reading up and more practice I realized there could be some improvements. I finally used up all the old components and am about to start with components recommended here on this infinite well of knowledge (please keep in mind some components aren't available/legal in Belgium).

I just wanted to list all my steps/process prior to this new load: please show me any flaws or hiccups so I can hopefully prevent mistakes I'm bound to make.

brass: mixed range brass limited to S&B, Fiocchi and Geco. (for development I stick with S&B headstamp because they're 80% of my cases)
bullet: geco 124gr FMJ RN
powder VV N320

measurements for push test (5 cases and 5 bullets tested)
cases 0.744"
bullet 0.616"
push test in barrel 1.21" (without subtraction for safety margin)

My first step would be to make 5 dummy rounds to test feeding function and plunk test with an OAL of 1.12".
This would give me a seating depth of 0.24".  And if I recall correctly it was Mr. Wobbly who said to seat the bullet at least 0.200" and as close to, but not exceeding, 0.250".

Then I would load 5 cartridges in 0.1gr increments from 3.8gr to 4.2gr and test over a chrony looking for the most accurate round in the vicinity of 1048 fps (PF 130).
With my previous load I attained an SD of 8 so I would be safe with those numbers I guess.

I have plunk tested every round in my barrel so far and out of those 10000 I only had to pull 3 because of sideways seated primers.

Sincerely
Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2019, 09:47:13 AM »
brass: mixed range brass limited to S&B, Fiocchi and Geco. (for development I stick with S&B headstamp because they're 80% of my cases)
bullet: geco 124gr FMJ RN
powder VV N320

measurements for push test (5 cases and 5 bullets tested)
cases 0.744"
bullet 0.616"
push test in barrel 1.21" (without subtraction for safety margin)

My first step would be to make 5 dummy rounds to test feeding function and plunk test with an OAL of 1.12".
This would give me a seating depth of 0.24".  And if I recall correctly it was Mr. Wobbly who said to seat the bullet at least 0.200" and as close to, but not exceeding, 0.250".


• I think your scores will improve with 124gr bullets over the prior 147gr bullets. So that's a very good choice.

• Next thing you'll want to do is do the "push test" to find your "Max Useable OAL".  This test tells how far OUT the barrel will allow bullet to be.  https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0

• You might also want to set your caliper to 9.0mm and then slide the INSIDE measuring tines into several brands of brass cases. That will give you a really good idea of what the "Max Seating Depth" will be. This because the tines will at some point strike the thickening case wall, which limits bullet seating depth. You want to stay well clear of that internal "ramp" built into the brass. This test tells how far IN the brass case will allow the bullet to be. 

[ Before you play soccer you want to know where the boundaries are so that you know what's allowable. Correct ?? These 2 simple tests give you some numbers that become your upper and lower bullet insertion "boundaries", or limits. ]

• You are also correct to proceed with the Seating Depth as your primary goal. And your calculations are correct. An OAL (if the Max OAL allows its use) of 1.120" (28.45 to 28.50mm) will yield an excellent (probably even your BEST) chance of success. Hopefully an OAL of 1.120" lies well between your Max and Min OAL. Adjust as required.

• You'll want to load your N320 probably starting at 4.0gr. You may want to try 4.1gr. Definitely change at 0.1gr increments in this load area. The Vit book will warn you this is over Max Load, but the velocities will prove it is not quite there. With a Jacketed RN (following the Lapua data) you'll instead want to watch for a max bullet velocity of ~326mps (1070fps). You should end up well below that.

The Loading
• Now with this data you are ready to reload. All mechanical powder measures need time to "settle in" and even then they still wander. So the best process starts with NEVER using the first 10-20 drops. Back into the hopper they go. Allow the powder time to settle.

Then the best setup method is to use an averaging scheme. If you want 4.1gr per load, then adjust your powder measure until 10 dumps weighs exactly 41.0gr. Some loads will be 4.09gr and some will be 4.11gr, but each will be as close to 4.10gr as possible.

Then check each cartridge by dropping it into your barrel, or a trusted case gauge. I like the ones from L.E.Wilson the best.

Finally, stack the ammo in plastic bin boxes with the bullet end DOWN. This will allow you to run your finger tip over each case. Most people can actually "feel" poor primer seating before they can see it.

Then comes the hard part. Your performance !!

Best of luck.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 10:11:51 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline TdC

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2019, 01:46:28 PM »
Hey everyone,

Thank you for the reply. I learn something new every-time, just how I like it :)
I've written a few answers in your quote.


• Next thing you'll want to do is do the "push test" to find your "Max Useable OAL".  This test tells how far OUT the barrel will allow bullet to be.  https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0
That was the third measurement I wrote down: 1.21".  With subtraction of 0.015" to stay clear of the lands it gives 1.195" max useable OAL with this bullet <-> 1.169" max length for magazine

• You might also want to set your caliper to 9.0mm and then slide the INSIDE measuring tines into several brands of brass cases. That will give you a really good idea of what the "Max Seating Depth" will be. This because the tines will at some point strike the thickening case wall, which limits bullet seating depth. You want to stay well clear of that internal "ramp" built into the brass. This test tells how far IN the brass case will allow the bullet to be. 
Excellent tip, I haven't done this before. Would 5 cases/brand be enough?

[ Before you play soccer you want to know where the boundaries are so that you know what's allowable. Correct ?? These 2 simple tests give you some numbers that become your upper and lower bullet insertion "boundaries", or limits. ]

• You are also correct to proceed with the Seating Depth as your primary goal. And your calculations are correct. An OAL (if the Max OAL allows its use) of 1.120" (28.45 to 28.50mm) will yield an excellent (probably even your BEST) chance of success. Hopefully an OAL of 1.120" lies well between your Max and Min OAL. Adjust as required.

• You'll want to load your N320 probably starting at 4.0gr. You may want to try 4.1gr. Definitely change at 0.1gr increments in this load area. The Vit book will warn you this is over Max Load, but the velocities will prove it is not quite there. With a Jacketed RN (following the Lapua data) you'll instead want to watch for a max bullet velocity of ~326mps (1070fps). You should end up well below that.
Ok, I'll start at 4.0 and chrony every step

The Loading
• Now with this data you are ready to reload. All mechanical powder measures need time to "settle in" and even then they still wander. So the best process starts with NEVER using the first 10-20 drops. Back into the hopper they go. Allow the powder time to settle.

Then the best setup method is to use an averaging scheme. If you want 4.1gr per load, then adjust your powder measure until 10 dumps weighs exactly 41.0gr. Some loads will be 4.09gr and some will be 4.11gr, but each will be as close to 4.10gr as possible.
Indeed, I always averaged 2 times 10 drops, first one is a little off, second is (most of the time) spot on. Then I start to load. If the second 10 drops are still off, I do another 10.

Then check each cartridge by dropping it into your barrel, or a trusted case gauge. I like the ones from L.E.Wilson the best.
I don't have any case gauges, but I tested all 9997 completed rounds in my barrel, albeit slower I find it comforting everything fits in my barrel  ;)

Finally, stack the ammo in plastic bin boxes with the bullet end DOWN. This will allow you to run your finger tip over each case. Most people can actually "feel" poor primer seating before they can see it.
I stack them 400 at a time nose down and do a primer check, but the 3 ruined primers were already caught during loading - wrong feel when seating the primer

Then comes the hard part. Your performance !!
It is the hardest part because you need to train and train and train: you can train or 'will' your shots to the A zone. However the reloading has to be perfect from the start, which as a novice sometimes is more frightening  :-\

Best of luck.  ;)

sincerely
Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2019, 03:46:57 PM »
• Next thing you'll want to do is do the "push test" to find your "Max Useable OAL".  This test tells how far OUT the barrel will allow bullet to be.  https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0
That was the third measurement I wrote down: 1.210".  With subtraction of 0.015" to stay clear of the lands it gives 1.195" max useable OAL with this bullet <-> 1.169" max length for magazine
So you are good to use anything at the longer end of the spectrum. But there is a lot of free accuracy to gain with deeper bullet insertion, so your rounds will tend to be at the shorter end of the spectrum.

• You might also want to set your caliper to 9.0mm and then slide the INSIDE measuring tines into several brands of brass cases. That will give you a really good idea of what the "Max Seating Depth" will be. This because the tines will at some point strike the thickening case wall, which limits bullet seating depth. You want to stay well clear of that internal "ramp" built into the brass. This test tells how far IN the brass case will allow the bullet to be. 
Excellent tip, I haven't done this before. Would 5 cases/brand be enough?
One case per brand marking will tell all. Now what we see here in the USA is "Win" and "WIN"...  both Winchester, but 2 distinctly different makers for Winchester.

• You'll want to load your N320 probably starting at 4.0gr. You may want to try 4.1gr. Definitely change at 0.1gr increments in this load area. The Vit book will warn you this is over Max Load, but the velocities will prove it is not quite there. With a Jacketed RN (following the Lapua data) you'll instead want to watch for a max bullet velocity of ~326mps (1070fps). You should end up well below that.
Ok, I'll start at 4.0 and chrony every step
This is going to be a small test, so I'd load 15 at 3.9gr, another 15 at 4.0gr, and another 15 at 4.1gr. That's enough to get you 10 across the chrono, and 5 from a rested position into a target.

Then the best setup method is to use an averaging scheme. If you want 4.1gr per load, then adjust your powder measure until 10 dumps weighs exactly 41.0gr. Some loads will be 4.09gr and some will be 4.11gr, but each will be as close to 4.10gr as possible.
Indeed, I always averaged 2 times 10 drops, first one is a little off, second is (most of the time) spot on. Then I start to load. If the second 10 drops are still off, I do another 10.
I am speaking generally here. An all-plastic powder measure might take more "procedure" than an all-metal one. A humid location by the sea might take more care than in a dryer mountain location, or one done in air conditioning.

Some powder measures, like the Dillon, settle very fast due to the built-in thumping cam. All hand-operated measures can be thumped by the user, if they care to do so.

And then too, the presence of a powder baffle always helps.... Click Here

Then check each cartridge by dropping it into your barrel, or a trusted case gauge. I like the ones from L.E.Wilson the best.
I don't have any case gauges, but I tested all 9997 completed rounds in my barrel, albeit slower I find it comforting everything fits in my barrel  ;)
The barrel is always best, but not always available on short notice. That's where the case or cartridge gauge can really help. For $20 it's a worthwhile tool to have on your bench.

Finally, stack the ammo in plastic bin boxes with the bullet end DOWN. This will allow you to run your finger tip over each case. Most people can actually "feel" poor primer seating before they can see it.
I stack them 400 at a time nose down and do a primer check, but the 3 ruined primers were already caught during loading - wrong feel when seating the primer
The real trick is this: will they slide all the way into and then back out of the chamber using ONLY their own weight ? No fair slapping the barrel. Only their own weight.

Then comes the hard part. Your performance !!
It is the hardest part because you need to train and train and train: you can train or 'will' your shots to the A zone. However the reloading has to be perfect from the start, which as a novice sometimes is more frightening  :-\
The whole idea behind the above is that you only need to worry about your training. You'll have zero worries about the ammo because you've eliminated all possible errors through checks. However, that does not mean you can't get better ! As your shooting skill grows, your skill at making "perfect" ammo should too.

A huge lesson for me was NOT to pick up the brass after a competition unless I knew for sure it was mine. So colored markers, die maker's penetrant, and spray paint come into play.

 ;D
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 03:52:32 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2019, 03:55:53 PM »
I can come up with 10 more ways to spend your money.

If you need help, just ask.   O0
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Offline TdC

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2019, 05:03:12 PM »
Hey,

So 1 case for every headstamp it is.
Then 15 rounds per step for accuracy and velocity.

I reload in a room with 30-40% humidity, 17°C. A Dillon hopper/powder measure with an elastic band to aid the thump. On the bottom of the hopper is a baffle.

My safe is in my reloading room so after I finished reloading, I take my barrel and drop every round in and turn the barrel over over another container to see if the round drops out freely.

You are correct, I should have said perfect as in 'no mistakes'. It can always become more consistent, better finetuning...

I learned to mark my brass from day one, even on training days it helps tot recover my brass. If there's a red and a green line it's mine ;D

No matter how much I would love to know how to spend my money, I have a 7 week old son who deprives me from sleep and money. And I gladly give it to him 8)

Sincerely
Toby

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2019, 05:15:23 AM »
One thing I'd like to add since I'm in a long process:

After you have found a good load which gives you good accuracy, don't focus too much on hitting A's or you will stick in your class/result for more than expected. Also you will know that any mistake comes from you and not the cartridge/gun, as already said. 

One more thing about feeding issues : don't expect cartridges to work just because they fit in your barrel, you may have bad surprires if they are not feeding correctly. Of course if you had no issues before a match, you shouldn't have any, but if you're using a new load and the cartridges fit in the barrel perfectly, that isn't enough to be sure they will work. Using magazines and loading them is a good double check (remove the firing pin first). Do it like the gun was a slingshot so that will mimic the real functioning

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 09:13:08 AM »
I reload in a room with 30-40% humidity, 17°C. A Dillon hopper/powder measure with an elastic band to aid the thump. On the bottom of the hopper is a baffle.

• Yes, the Dillon measure is very good. One of my favorites. It still helps to squirt a small amount of powdered graphite down into the hopper every 6 months or so. This is something locksmiths use as an all-weather lubricant, so it may be easier to find at a lock shop.

• There is another process step (this time very low cost  O0 ) which you can explore. When using a 550 I found that adding case lube to every second or third round worked its way around to every die and made everything go better. Sizing and Seating in particular. I used a "lube pad", which is nothing more than an absorbent surface coated with lanolin. I would roll 5 or 6 cases on the pad together, and insert these individually into the flow of cases going to the press.

When I converted to a case feeder (and stopped handling the individual cases), I had to convert my lubrication process over to misting (spraying) lubricants onto the case exteriors with a highly diluted solution of the same.

All the better case lubricants are nothing more than sheep's lanolin diluted with alcohol to help it flow. The object of the entire exercise is to deposit lubricant ONLY on the exterior of the case, then allow time for the alcohol to evaporate. The result was less physical effort, and much more consistent OALs.

• The third (inexpensive  ;D ) process I'd recommend is to take the time to insure that the Seating die is in fact 1) centering, and then 2) seating the bullet with absolute accuracy. This because in order for a bullet to fly straight, it must spin about an axis of rotation that is perfectly aligned with the physical axis of the bullet (which must contain the bullet's Center of Gravity), and hopefully lie on the axis of the barrel after being chambered.

Everybody sees the need for this. Everybody understands why this needs to happen. Hardly anyone takes the time to make sure it's actually happening !  :o  It amounts to a huge assumption.

Depending upon the brand of Seating Die, you can add epoxy, lap with lapping compound, or machine certain surfaces to create a pocket that fully supports and properly guides your particular bullet.

Hope these ideas help.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:27:31 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 09:29:09 AM »
Powdered graphite can also be found at places that sell/service farm equipment.  Very common to use on implements that contact dirt because the dirt doesn't stick to it. 

At least that is what I used it for with equipment made 30+ years ago - hopefully you can still find it there.

Good auto parts stores used to carry it too - used for speedometer cables and such.  (Of course speedometer cables don't exist anymore either).

Hmmm - I think I just dated myself again.... :o

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If it goes "boom" or "vroom" I'm intersted.

Offline FALer

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 12:04:32 AM »
Home improvement centers often have powdered graphite in their lubricant section.
                               
                      and, it should be said that this thread is an excellent read.

Offline TdC

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 07:29:13 AM »
Hey,

indeed one of the DIY stores in my neighbourhood has powdered graphite.
I have something (don't know what it is called  - plant sprout?) to water plants filled with a mixture of alcohol and lanolin.
I also tumble my cases with a little bit of car polish.
The inside diameter of all brands was a minimum of 9mm to a depth of at least 0.30 inch so seating to 0.24 should not pose any problems.

Wobbly how can one check correct alignment of the die?

Thank you all for your effort!

Toby
edited for spelling errors (dutch auto-correct)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:58:49 AM by TdC »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 04:05:45 PM »
Toby -
Good to hear from you !

Wobbly how can one check correct alignment of the die?
You really can't, so you need to make sure that the ogive of the bullet fits firmly into a socket in the Seating Die. That is, the bullet can't move from side-to-side. Most die makers provide a good anvil shape for RN, but conical bullets can be another matter. Hornady and Reeding have a good solution for conical, but Dillon does not. So for Dillon dies I cut my own.


Edited for spelling errors (dutch auto-correct)
That reminds me.... When the Dutch shoot action pistol, how do they run from station to station in those wooden shoes ?

 ;)
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Offline TdC

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 05:30:57 AM »
Hey,

it's a RN so probably I'm ok, but I presume if I pull the anvil I can check the fit with a bullet?

Careful there  :P both Dutch and Belgians speak Dutch but otherwise it's world's apart   O0

Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Novice reloader 9x19 124gr FMJ N320 IPSC minor PF
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 08:16:02 AM »
Hey,
it's a RN so probably I'm ok, but I presume if I pull the anvil I can check the fit with a bullet?
Toby

You see, we are going though all these inspection process steps to reduce and eliminate all the unknowns about the ammo. If it's within your power to control, then you should check it so that the source of variation and uncertainty is eliminated. Uncertainty is not the competitor's friend !

In English, words such as Probably and Presume indicate uncertainty. They are closely related to Guessing. It's time to disassemble the Seating Die and Know for sure.

 ;)
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anything