What caused the damage to this case? 45ACP

[Dan_69GTX]

An acquaintance friend has gotten into reloading.  He was reloading 45ACP w/ 231 5.6 grain, 230RN bullet - I'm guessing a plated or jacketed bullet.  Using a single stage press.

In the pic he says the bottom case blew, and caused the upper round in the mag (upper case in pic) to ignite as well.  Bullet for upper round of the mag was still in the mag.  He had something fly back and hit him in the face, but he is not sure what it was.  He received no physical damage to his body.

He was wondering if it was a double charge.  Any thoughts - sorry - only pic he gave me.  For you 45ACP loaders, can you put 11.2 grains of 231 in a 45 case?

He said the gun was fine but the magazine was swelled at the top.  Wouldn't a double charge do damage to the gun?  Why would just the base of the case, above the rim, get a hole?

Any insight would be appreciated - more so for me since I've got no idea what happened and would love to learn more

[ReloaderFred]

It was one of two things, or a combination of both.  The first would be a weak spot in the brass directly over the feedramp, which doesn't support the case.  The second would be an over pressure round.

In any case, he needs to do more diligent brass inspection prior to loading, and take another look at his powder drop method and pre-seating check process.

Glad he wasn't hurt.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[George16]

Firing out of battery making the base of the case(weakened or questionable integrity) not supported in the chamber and/or double charge.

What gun was he shooting with?

Did he check the barrel for a squib?

[Dan_69GTX]

I asked if all worked fine before then - he said yes.

I asked if he had squib before this round - he said no.

I asked what the barrel looks like now - he said fine. (no blockage).

It was a Les Bear (spelling?) gun - I think.  It was a 1911 style.

So, can you put 11.2 grains of 231 in a 45 ACP case?  Guess I'll have to try it sometime. 

I am amazed he wasn't hurt.  God was looking after him!

[lewmed]

 Your friend is very lucky indeed and 5.6 gr. of 231 is a very heavy load for any 230 gr bullet.  And yes a 45 auto case will hold 11.2 gr. of 231 and make a dandy little bomb when fired in any 45 auto pistol.  I've seen a 45 cartridge rupture much like your friends did in a 1911 that blew a full magazine out of the pistol and broke several of the shooter toes. A local range in Wichita used to have a Glock 21 on display that was a total loss from a over charged 45 auto round.

[Dan_69GTX]

Thanks for the info on if the case will hold all the powder.

One of the reasons I started with 231 for 9mm - very obvious on a double charge.

Good to know about the load being heavy - I keep forgetting to look at my manuals.

[ReloaderFred]

It's definitely not an out of battery discharge.  If that had been what happened, the case would have had a rupture over the entire circumference, not just where the feedramp is on a 1911 barrel.  This case ruptured where it wasn't supported by the chamber, since the feedramp protrudes into the bottom of the chamber and leaves a small portion of the case unsupported.  That's where this case ruptured. 

A weak case and/or high pressure caused this case to fail.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Dan_69GTX]

It's definitely not an out of battery discharge.  If that had been what happened, the case would have had a rupture over the entire circumference, not just where the feedramp is on a 1911 barrel.  This case ruptured where it wasn't supported by the chamber, since the feedramp protrudes into the bottom of the chamber and leaves a small portion of the case unsupported.  That's where this case ruptured. 

A weak case and/or high pressure caused this case to fail.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Thanks for that explanation.  I've never seen an out-of-battery discharge so didn't know what it would look like.

Another question - does an out-of-battery discharge create frame and/or slide damage too?

And YES, it does help a lot!!  Thanks for sharing your knowledge.



 

[Wobbly]

It was one of two things, or a combination of both.  The first would be a weak spot in the brass directly over the feedramp, which doesn't support the case.  The second would be an over pressure round.

In any case, he needs to do more diligent brass inspection prior to loading, and take another look at his powder drop method and pre-seating check process.

Glad he wasn't hurt.

^^ This !!

Your friend has just learned why we "start low and work up".

Again, very glad he wasn't hurt.

[recoilguy]

I was going to say an over used pick up brass, possibly strained but very likely weakened or stretched thin.

I don't know how he loads but if there is a chance he double dipped the powder drop that is also a very real possibility.

I just came late to the thread so I am repeating what has been stated. Check all the brass you load for visible flaws and be careful when you do your drops, especially with 231 HP38 the likes of N320 or a few other similar powders that will actually fit a double.

It is good that he is not hurt but I bet he had a little extra laundry to do that evening.

RCG

[ReloaderFred]

It's definitely not an out of battery discharge.  If that had been what happened, the case would have had a rupture over the entire circumference, not just where the feedramp is on a 1911 barrel.  This case ruptured where it wasn't supported by the chamber, since the feedramp protrudes into the bottom of the chamber and leaves a small portion of the case unsupported.  That's where this case ruptured. 

A weak case and/or high pressure caused this case to fail.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Thanks for that explanation.  I've never seen an out-of-battery discharge so didn't know what it would look like.

Another question - does an out-of-battery discharge create frame and/or slide damage too?

And YES, it does help a lot!!  Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

In the cases of out of battery discharge that I've seen, there was damage to the firearm.  When the the round goes off under normal conditions (everything as it should be), the cartridge case only acts as the container for the bullet, powder and primer, but also as the seal in the chamber to direct the pressure down the barrel.  The cartridge case alone isn't strong enough to contain all that pressure, only the steel of the chamber is that strong.  The case is simply the seal.

In an out of battery discharge, all the parts haven't locked up to form an enclosed chamber, so there's a gap between the bolt/slide and barrel/chamber.  The case just doesn't have the strength to contain all that pressure, so there's a catastrophic failure of the case itself, which releases all that pressure in the wrong direction, which is back at the shooter and inside the firearm itself, rather than within the chamber and down the barrel.  The case is the weak link, so it gives first.  Depending on the design of the firearm, the materials it's made of, and the pressure of the caliber, the damage can vary.  A relatively low pressure round like the .45 acp won't normally cause as much damage as a high pressure round such as the .30-06, or one of the whiz bang magnum calibers.  There will likely be damage with the .45 acp, but not as much.  When the case lets go, it really lets go.  I've got sample in my collection where just the base of the case was against the bolt/slide, and the rest of the case was completely separated.  The pressure causes the whole case to separate, not just over the feedramp.

That's just a brief explanation, but I hope it gives you an idea of what goes on.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Dan_69GTX]

I was going to say an over used pick up brass, possibly strained but very likely weakened or stretched thin.

That is why all my range pickup brass is sorted 2 times - looking for damaged cases, steel, stepped cases, flattened or missing or the like primers, etc.   Knock on wood no problem yet.

.... I bet he had a little extra laundry to do that evening.

I can't believe I never picked on him about that one.....wow - I must be getting old!   

[M1A4ME]

I'm amazed the top round in the magazine also "fired". 

Having one incident doesn't make you an expert but I had the 9MM case let go on the Pre B CZ85.  Compressed charge of Blue Dot (not max, but within 10% of max in the manual) and it completely separated at the base.  The base popped out (extracted/ejected) and the walls stayed in the chamber.

You can see how the case split, bottom center and was pushed downwards by the escaping gas/pressure.



The next round tried to chamber but couldn't.  I racked the slide and the round below that one also failed to chamber and that's when I realized it wasn't just a "jam" and started looking closer.

Here's a picture of the base lying on the bench and the top round (the one that the gas/pressure blew down on when the case failed).



I got the case walls out of the chamber, put the barrel/recoil spring/guide back in the slide, put the slide on the frame, inserted the magazine and kept on shooting.  That design is build like a tank.  No damage to the magazine or pistol.  Just really dirty inside.

As for used brass in a .45 acp being an issue, I doubt it.  People use that stuff till the case mouth finally cracks on belling/crimping when the brass is older than their first born.

A weak/badly made case I can believe.  I've had factory .44 magnum and .30-06 brass blow holes through the side of the case the first time it was fired.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Those of us who reload need to be extra careful of the brass we reload with these days. Many of the modern striker fired pistols do not have fully supported chambers so the brass tends to get worked more near the base and I think the cases weaken faster. Any range pickup brass I bring home gets cleaned and sorted and those that have obvious deformations near the base get tossed. I have had a few 9mms rupture at the base with no other explanation but to suspect weak cases.

[SoCal]

FYI according to Nosler 5.6 grains of 231 occupy 43%  of volume so plenty of room for a double charge.  Lyman 49th Ed. shows 5.8 max load with TMJ 230 grain Speer bullet, so 5.6 gr. is a heavy load.