Author Topic: P-10 F trigger not always resetting  (Read 1644 times)

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Offline earlan357

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2019, 08:43:33 AM »
I also failed to mention in the previous post that when I pushed the trigger bar forward and a pulled the trigger back and forth that it was smooth throughout the pull.  No catches of any kind.  Also, when I removed the trigger to file the trigger notch in the frame, I also changed out the mag release for an HBI mag release.

I just came from the range.  The trigger reset issue did not heal itself while I was gone. ;) When the trigger does not reset, it is dead. There is no spring tension against it.  As I said before and verified this afternoon, the P-10 F slide works great on my P-10 C frame.

This is a head scratcher.  If the slide is moving back far enough to eject the casing, then it's moving back enough to reset the trigger, so we can pretty much rule out short stroking.  My gut still thinks the trigger bar isn't popping up fast enough to catch the striker or the striker leg is too short for the tolerances in your slide/frame.  What ammo are you using and how's ejection?  Factory springs are pretty stiff, I'm using a 13# in my P-10F with minor PF loads and they still land 5-6 feet away.  Conceivably,  if weak ammo and a stout recoil spring are only allowing the slide to move far enough to pick up the next round, there might not be enough "dwell" to let the trigger bar pop up to catch the striker?  Sort of like an AR bolt outrunning the hammer.

When the trigger resets, does it sound like a sharp snap or is it more like a dull thud?

Can you post a video?  Mainly I want to see how quickly the trigger bar pops up when you press in on the disconnector nub. 

Offline RandyMan

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2019, 12:40:22 PM »
I had a problem with my P10C not resetting every time after installing the new CGW striker also. After reading this post and trying the suggests in the post I still had a concern. I call David @ CGW and he stated that the striker spring may be the concern.
I reinstalled the OEM striker spring on the new CGW striker and the concern was resolved! I now run a Wolff #5 glock spring and it is works great!
Not sure if you had tried a different spring, but I wanted to share in case you had not.

Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2019, 01:51:03 PM »
I also failed to mention in the previous post that when I pushed the trigger bar forward and a pulled the trigger back and forth that it was smooth throughout the pull.  No catches of any kind.  Also, when I removed the trigger to file the trigger notch in the frame, I also changed out the mag release for an HBI mag release.

I just came from the range.  The trigger reset issue did not heal itself while I was gone. ;) When the trigger does not reset, it is dead. There is no spring tension against it.  As I said before and verified this afternoon, the P-10 F slide works great on my P-10 C frame.

This is a head scratcher.  If the slide is moving back far enough to eject the casing, then it's moving back enough to reset the trigger, so we can pretty much rule out short stroking.  My gut still thinks the trigger bar isn't popping up fast enough to catch the striker or the striker leg is too short for the tolerances in your slide/frame.  What ammo are you using and how's ejection?  Factory springs are pretty stiff, I'm using a 13# in my P-10F with minor PF loads and they still land 5-6 feet away.  Conceivably,  if weak ammo and a stout recoil spring are only allowing the slide to move far enough to pick up the next round, there might not be enough "dwell" to let the trigger bar pop up to catch the striker?  Sort of like an AR bolt outrunning the hammer.

When the trigger resets, does it sound like a sharp snap or is it more like a dull thud?

Can you post a video?  Mainly I want to see how quickly the trigger bar pops up when you press in on the disconnector nub.

I have a 15# recoil spring on both my F and C. I reload and am shooting 145 Bayous over N320.  Chrono around 875 in my C.  Probably will go 885+ in my F. Since I have been mostly shooting the F slide on the C frame, I know with this combination the brass falls about 6 feet away, give or take.  I know that the brass from my F slide and F frame does not fall at my feet but I will have to shoot it again to tell you exactly.  When the trigger does not reset, and I rack the slide to reset it, I only have to move the slide .75 of an inch to reset the trigger.

When I dry fire and hold the trigger down, then rack the slide with the trigger still down, then let off  the trigger, I get a click on reset. I'd say it is somewhere between a snap and a thud but it sounds the same whether I am doing it with the F or the C.  When I dry fire and let off and rack the slide, the trigger resets but I don't hear the click over the sound of the slide. Same on both guns.

Let's say the striker is over running the trigger bar.  How do I correct that?  Since I am IT challenged, I will have to beg my wife to help me take and post a video. That may take a day or so. 

Earlan, thank you for your time and knowledge.  I know you have plenty of things to do besides trying to sort this out for me.


Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 01:54:30 PM »
I had a problem with my P10C not resetting every time after installing the new CGW striker also. After reading this post and trying the suggests in the post I still had a concern. I call David @ CGW and he stated that the striker spring may be the concern.
I reinstalled the OEM striker spring on the new CGW striker and the concern was resolved! I now run a Wolff #5 glock spring and it is works great!
Not sure if you had tried a different spring, but I wanted to share in case you had not.

I had wondered about that, but since the F slide works on the C frame I had discounted it.  However, it is an easy swap. I will give it a try.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Offline earlan357

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 02:33:56 PM »
I have a 15# recoil spring on both my F and C. I reload and am shooting 145 Bayous over N320.  Chrono around 875 in my C.  Probably will go 885+ in my F. Since I have been mostly shooting the F slide on the C frame, I know with this combination the brass falls about 6 feet away, give or take.  I know that the brass from my F slide and F frame does not fall at my feet but I will have to shoot it again to tell you exactly.  When the trigger does not reset, and I rack the slide to reset it, I only have to move the slide .75 of an inch to reset the trigger.

When I dry fire and hold the trigger down, then rack the slide with the trigger still down, then let off  the trigger, I get a click on reset. I'd say it is somewhere between a snap and a thud but it sounds the same whether I am doing it with the F or the C.  When I dry fire and let off and rack the slide, the trigger resets but I don't hear the click over the sound of the slide. Same on both guns.

Let's say the striker is over running the trigger bar.  How do I correct that?  Since I am IT challenged, I will have to beg my wife to help me take and post a video. That may take a day or so. 

Earlan, thank you for your time and knowledge.  I know you have plenty of things to do besides trying to sort this out for me.

Okay that explains a lot.   I must have missed the part about swapping slides.  Basically, tolerance stacking is letting the slide overrun the trigger bar.  It could also just be the differences between the trigger bars.  I bought 2 P-10Cs a month apart and they had drastically different trigger pulls.  In the picture below, both are pulled to the rear, but the nub is cut differently between the two, and you can see how much lower one sits.  The one on the right (FDE) worked fine with the slide it came with, but if I swapped on the Black pistol's slide, it wouldn't catch half the time.  Compare the trigger bar hights in both frames and see if there's a big discrepancy.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 06:27:04 PM by Wobbly, Reason: Mods reset photo width »

Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2019, 11:21:52 AM »

Here are the frames side by side.  The F is on the right and the C on the left.  It looks to me like the F might be slightly higher. Shot the F slide on the C frame at a local match Saturday.  No problems, reset every time just like it should.  I think I will just tear the F down and put it back together very carefully.  Who knows, maybe that will work.






Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2019, 10:27:26 PM »
I have been switching triggers on the P-10F frame and here are my results.  The HBI trigger and the CGW trigger will not reset consistently.  The OEM trigger resets without fail.  I even backed off the pre-travel screw on the CGW trigger until it nearly fell out and it still did not reset consistently on the P010F frame.  These triggers reset on the P-10C frame.  What would cause the aftermarket triggers to fail to reset on the F frame when they do reset on the C frame and when the OEM trigger resets on the F frame?

My thought was that I would return the gun to the stock trigger and replace all the other OEM parts and when it would not reset I would send it back to CZ-USA.  Obviously, since it resets with the stock trigger that plan won't work.  Sure, I could just keep the stock trigger in it but I like the HBI trigger much better and I have one on one of my C frames.


Offline earlan357

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2019, 10:42:38 AM »
I have been switching triggers on the P-10F frame and here are my results.  The HBI trigger and the CGW trigger will not reset consistently.  The OEM trigger resets without fail.  I even backed off the pre-travel screw on the CGW trigger until it nearly fell out and it still did not reset consistently on the P010F frame.  These triggers reset on the P-10C frame.  What would cause the aftermarket triggers to fail to reset on the F frame when they do reset on the C frame and when the OEM trigger resets on the F frame?

My thought was that I would return the gun to the stock trigger and replace all the other OEM parts and when it would not reset I would send it back to CZ-USA.  Obviously, since it resets with the stock trigger that plan won't work.  Sure, I could just keep the stock trigger in it but I like the HBI trigger much better and I have one on one of my C frames.

Sounds like an issue with tolerance stacking between the factory parts.  If you look at your rear rail inserts and trigger bars, I'll bet they have different #s stamped into them.  I don't know if those are just date/lot codes or if CZ has variations that can be mix/matched at the factory to account for tolerance.  Sort of like how CZ installs a #2,#3, or #4 marked front sights to correct POI.  My P-10F with CGW trigger and #10320 striker started doubling yesterday.  It doesn't help that the rear cage is also loose because the forward holes in the polymer frame have elongated from over-enthusiastic reloads smacking the ejector.  I was going to order OEM parts but it's kind of a crap shoot whether the new parts will solve the problem or not.  Instead, I'm probably going to re-drill the holes for a sightly larger roll pin to stabilize the insert, then lower the bottom of the kidney cut to get another .010" of sear engagement during reset.

Offline Raining_Brass

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2019, 10:50:51 AM »
We have been testing an absolutely insane amount of frames, trigger bars, etc while developing our soon to be released P-10 trigger. Haven't quite gotten to the bottom of it juuuust yet (we have a good idea, but haven't confirmed it yet), but something about the P-10F frames makes the same trigger form another gun have considerably less pre travel. It is not random either. We have seen it consistently across every P-10F we've tested with.
With aftermarket triggers which reduce the amount of pre travel, that's when the issue can arise in some F frames with a failure to reset. If what we believe to be the issue is indeed the problem, our trigger won't have this issue.

Edit: The above may be a totally separate problem from what you're experiencing. But again, we have noted it to be a measurable occurrence on every single P-10F frame we've tested in.

Offline earlan357

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2019, 11:49:44 AM »
We have been testing an absolutely insane amount of frames, trigger bars, etc while developing our soon to be released P-10 trigger. Haven't quite gotten to the bottom of it juuuust yet (we have a good idea, but haven't confirmed it yet), but something about the P-10F frames makes the same trigger form another gun have considerably less pre travel. It is not random either. We have seen it consistently across every P-10F we've tested with.
With aftermarket triggers which reduce the amount of pre travel, that's when the issue can arise in some F frames with a failure to reset. If what we believe to be the issue is indeed the problem, our trigger won't have this issue.

Edit: The above may be a totally separate problem from what you're experiencing. But again, we have noted it to be a measurable occurrence on every single P-10F frame we've tested in.

Yup, manufacturing tolerances are a thing.  I bought two P-10Cs a month apart and they had drastically different triggers.  The FDE one had a crisp break and a ton of over-travel.  The black one had a lighter rolling break and zero over-travel.  You can see a huge disparity in the height of the trigger bars at the rearward position when still engaging the connector ramp.


Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2019, 02:53:55 PM »
I have been switching triggers on the P-10F frame and here are my results.  The HBI trigger and the CGW trigger will not reset consistently.  The OEM trigger resets without fail.  I even backed off the pre-travel screw on the CGW trigger until it nearly fell out and it still did not reset consistently on the P010F frame.  These triggers reset on the P-10C frame.  What would cause the aftermarket triggers to fail to reset on the F frame when they do reset on the C frame and when the OEM trigger resets on the F frame?

My thought was that I would return the gun to the stock trigger and replace all the other OEM parts and when it would not reset I would send it back to CZ-USA.  Obviously, since it resets with the stock trigger that plan won't work.  Sure, I could just keep the stock trigger in it but I like the HBI trigger much better and I have one on one of my C frames.

Sounds like an issue with tolerance stacking between the factory parts.  If you look at your rear rail inserts and trigger bars, I'll bet they have different #s stamped into them.  I don't know if those are just date/lot codes or if CZ has variations that can be mix/matched at the factory to account for tolerance.  Sort of like how CZ installs a #2,#3, or #4 marked front sights to correct POI.  My P-10F with CGW trigger and #10320 striker started doubling yesterday.  It doesn't help that the rear cage is also loose because the forward holes in the polymer frame have elongated from over-enthusiastic reloads smacking the ejector.  I was going to order OEM parts but it's kind of a crap shoot whether the new parts will solve the problem or not.  Instead, I'm probably going to re-drill the holes for a sightly larger roll pin to stabilize the insert, then lower the bottom of the kidney cut to get another .010" of sear engagement during reset.
Thanks, Earlan. I always appreciate your insights.

Offline fastlane604

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2019, 03:01:35 PM »
We have been testing an absolutely insane amount of frames, trigger bars, etc while developing our soon to be released P-10 trigger. Haven't quite gotten to the bottom of it juuuust yet (we have a good idea, but haven't confirmed it yet), but something about the P-10F frames makes the same trigger form another gun have considerably less pre travel. It is not random either. We have seen it consistently across every P-10F we've tested with.
With aftermarket triggers which reduce the amount of pre travel, that's when the issue can arise in some F frames with a failure to reset. If what we believe to be the issue is indeed the problem, our trigger won't have this issue.

Edit: The above may be a totally separate problem from what you're experiencing. But again, we have noted it to be a measurable occurrence on every single P-10F frame we've tested in.

Thanks, Bruce. Is your trigger flat? When will it be available?

My reset problem seemed to start when I filed off a very slight amount of polymer from the bottom of the trigger notch in the frame.  The back of the trigger safety (dingus to me) was catching on the bottom of the notch.  It may be coincidental (and I can't see how this would affect reset) but I had no reset issues prior to removing that small amount of frame material.

Offline Raining_Brass

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2019, 04:29:48 PM »

Thanks, Bruce. Is your trigger flat? When will it be available?

It's flat, but with a nice hook on the bottom that stops your finger from riding down onto the frame (this is the hugest complaint I have with every aftermarket P-10 trigger currently available).

No ETA yet. It's got to be absolutely perfect before we will release it.

Offline yfz450mike

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Re: P-10 F trigger not always resetting
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2020, 02:07:07 PM »
Pretty disturbing and similar issue. New HB trigger install, felt great. Went to the range and about 20 rounds in, dead trigger. When I got home and took it apart I noticed with the trigger fully depressed the trigger bar was not falling into the trigger bar disconnector. Looked very much like the picture earlan357 posted (the one on the left) but a bit more exaggerated. If I pushed down on the part where the firing pin rides and it clicked down, the trigger reset. After taking it apart and cleaning where the disconnector goes inside the frame insert, everything seems fine. Very much do not like this issue.

 

anything