Good starting powder for 9mm Luger and 38 special?

[Metal Wonder Nine Guy]

I plan on reloading 38 special first, and then get into 9mm Luger loading after I get used to 38 special reloading.

One of the instructors at a local range I go to swears by Unique powder for most pistol loads, especially for revolver cartridges like 38 special. While load data exists for 9mm Luger Unique loads, I have heard a couple people recommend Titegroup or Bullseye powder for 9mm Luger loads. What powder did you folks start out with when you started reloading for these 2 cartridge types?

[Wobbly]

Unique and Bullseye are both over 100 years old. They are "standards", but there are powders the same burn rate that are simply much easier to work with. Unique is OK in 38, but actually a tad too slow for 9mm. It also has coarse crystals that are known to "clump" inside the powder measure and not meter accurately. Bullseye does much better as a dual-use powder, but you can easily beat their handling and performance with more modern offerings.

TiteGroup is way too fast and hot for a novice reloader. The people who love it and use lots of "TG" are using professional grade powder measures and have their loading process down pat. In my book, anyone that recommends TG to a novice (who may have beginner grade equipment and NO process) is simply irresponsible. I'm not saying it's the 'Hillary Clinton' of powders, it has its place. Generally the people who use it though, use a LOT of it and reload maybe 10,000 rounds per year. In short, it's biggest asset is that it's very cheap. You can do better.


For a novice reloader, you want a powder that "meters" well, has a very wide load range (is "forgiving"), and one that doesn't melt your gun or make it so you need to clean it continuously.

Plinking / Target Practice
We generally recommend Winchester 231, which is also sold under the name Hodgdon HP-38. A wonderful powder that matches it, and maybe outdoes it in some respects, is a new  (18 moths old) powder called Alliant Sport Pistol. These powders are excellent in either caliber, meter very well, leave your gun clean, and have a very wide load 'window' so you don't need to worry about being 0.1gr off with your measurements.

Power Loads
We do not recommend loading your own self defense loads, but if part of your practice is loading cheap rounds that mimic SD rounds, then your bullet needs to travel a little faster. For that you'll be very happy with Alliant BE-86, Winchester WSF, or Accurate No7 (in that order).


We have lots of data here, taken in CZ pistols using all these powders. Need more help, then just ask. Be SURE and read the Stickies at the top of this Forum.


Hope this helps. 

[larryflew]

Because I still have a a lot in stock, I use Unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old Unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.

[painter]

N320.

[Metal Wonder Nine Guy]

Because i still have a crapload I use unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.

So it is true that unique is dirty?

When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.

[eastman]

Because i still have a crapload I use unique for several pistol loads (32, 380, 9, and 44 light loads) and some of the bad things about original smoky dirty old unique are better than it used to be BUT it still doesn't meter well.

So it is true that unique is dirty?

When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.

Some powders don't flow through the powder measure as well as they should. It is a combination of factors such as grain shape, tendency to clump, static, etc that will lead to an inconsistent powder drop.

[M1A4ME]

Almost 40 years ago I got the opportunity to use an RCBS Lil Dandy Pistol Powder Measure for my handgun ammo reloading.  It uses interchangeable bushings, or rotors in the body to meter powder.  Big chart with a list of bushings by number and "about" how much powder weight in grains for a long list of powders each bushing should meter into your case/scale pan.

I remember being completely happy with it.  I used it for Unique, Bullseye, 2400, H110, W296, Blue Dot and maybe one or two more I don't remember right now.  Those were the powders I used for .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum (heavy and light loads) and .45 acp.

I didn't have accuracy issues with my handguns.  I had the opportunity to shoot a couple Colt NM pistols and they were fine.  But they didn't outshoot my Colt Combat Commander, not out as far as 25 yds. anyway.  My S&W 586 was only beaten by a beautiful S&W M14 a buddy owned (his with 148 grain HP wadcutters and Bullseye, mine with 125 or 158 grain jacketed hollow points and Blue Dot or one of the other powders I'm no longer sure of - exactly which one).

So, I bought another Lil Dandy a few years ago.  Easy to set up (just read the chart and order the correct rotor) and use.  BUT, it did not meter Unique or Bullseye as consistently as the one I used back in the early 80's.  I have no idea why.  I used different bushings for different powders for different calibers over a few months trying to find a use for it that made it worth using it over the RCBS Uniflow and there was no difference in consistency.  The Lil Dandy sits on the shelf waiting for some future testing or a new powder (come to think of it, I've got Tite Group, AA#7 and BE 86 to try now.)

I wonder what changed.  The powder?  The metal used in the rotors?  Some environmental (temperature/humidity in the reloading area) condition?

I check 1 out of every 10 cases I drop powder into to keep an eye out for changes in powder charge weight.  I pour the charge from the case to the scale pan and weigh it.  The Lil Dandy just doesn't do what it used to do all those years ago.  Something's changed.

I'm not even claiming I shoot as good as I did 40 years ago.  I'm a "wobbly" son of a gun now and it gets worse the longer I try to shoot.   I'm not trying to blame poor groups on the powder charge inconsistency, that's me or the gun (the P07 lets me know which).  I am saying that weighing 1 of 10 charges shows me what powders meter consistently and what powders don't.  And, I'm weight checking to see if a change in charge weight has occurred for some reason, not so much to test powder consistency, but I see a difference in consistency as a result of the weight checks.  Not a pistol powder but when I sit down and reload 400 rounds of .223 Rem. with H335 and weigh check 40 rounds and not a single one of them is off by 0.1 of a grain, that's consistent metering.

If AA#7, or BE86 will do that and shoot good groups I can load up my remaining Blue Dot (requires the use of the Hornady electronic powder measure/scale for consistent charge weights) and stop buying it.

[M1A4ME]

Sorry, got carried away and even let my coffee get cold.

OP.  Do you want ease of reloading or accurate loads?  Sometimes its not the same thing.  Then again, sometimes some people are happy being able to hit the paper at 10 yds. while someone else wants all the holes in the X ring/circle.

Do you want plinking loads?  Do you want self defense loads?  Makes a difference.

You can buy some different brands/types of factory ammo and shoot it.  Find out what is reliable and accurate for you in your handguns.

Take a look at the ammo manufacturer's website.  Some of them list ballistic data for their ammo.  Find some bullets/powders that should allow you to duplicate that velocity and then work up to those loads by starting your powder charge lower and working up in increments (increasing powder charges in small amounts - some people use 0.2 grain, some 0.3 grain, some 0.5 grain) while observing your pistol/brass for signs of too much powder.   And finding where those loads start giving you reliable functioning and good groups.  Some people recommend buying/using a chronograph to measure the bullet velocity so you are sure when you get there, or too fast.  Too fast may mean you're using too much powder and your pressure is too high.

I'm about to start that process (soon I hope) with 124 grain jacketed bullets for a 9MM M&P.  The single store bought ammo I've found that gives me good groups (not CZ pistol good, but better than anything else in that M&P) is the Winchester 124 grain FMJ NATO ammo.  Winchester lists a muzzle velocity of about 1200 fps.  I've bought some powders that should get me in that area and will be trying them to see if I can get that darn pistol to shoot good groups with my reloads.  CZ's will spoil you if you like small groups.  I struggle to resist the urge to find something that shoots as good as the CZs.

It may be hard to find a single/best powder for .38 special and 9MM.  Due to the case volume and pressure differences between the two they may require powders of different burn rates and density (weight per volume of powder) to achieve what you'll end up looking for.

Good luck.  Be safe.  Ask questions.  There a some very experienced reloaders on the forum and they are always willing to help folks understand things and learn things about reloading and shooting reloads.

[larryflew]

Eastman answered the metering.  I don't think Unique is any dirtier than most powders but it was years ago when I used it for trap loads. I actually switched to red dot (don't quote me on RD as it was nearly 40 years ago)  Several older powders have cleaned up their act as far as dirty are concerned from most of the different manufacturers.

[Wobbly]

When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.

First of all... there are absolutely NO "silly" questions. It's not until you ask that you learn something.

Yes, by metering we mean the way it goes through the powder measure. A pistol shoots way too many cartridges for you to weigh each powder load, so you must set up and use a mechanical powder measure.

Three things effect the accuracy of the powder measure: the physical mechanism, the user's technique, and the physical shape of the powder. The mechanism consists of 8-10 sub-parts by itself. Some PMs need highly refined user technique, some due to materials and design don't require that much. But, if the granules in your powder refuse to allow the powder to flow, then it's like stepping into the batter's box with one strike already against you.

When cowboys used Unique, they loaded with "dippers". A scoop full was what you added to the case before seating the bullet. But that was 1880-1920. Since about 1980, the popularity of pistol reloading has forced the powder makers to design powders that not only shoot good, but also work well in mechanical powder measures. That's the back story we're talking about when we discuss the physical behavior called metering.

So it is true that Unique is dirty?

As I said before, Unique is a little on the "slow" side for 9mm and 38Spcl. In "plinking" and target loads around 1000 fps, slow 'burn rate' powders can't burn efficiently. Any time you don't burn fuels efficiently you get soot. If you'd like to get your bullet speeds up to 1200 fps, then Unique's burn efficiency goes way up and the issue cures itself. The issue is simply that most average people shoot less than five 1200 fps cartridges per year, but they shoot 1000's of the slower target rounds.

So Unique is great in 357Mag rounds where bullet speeds of 1300 fps is normal, and awful in 38Spcl plinking loads at 750 fps. The difference is the chamber pressure it takes to achieve those bullet speeds, because powder burn efficiency goes up with increased chamber pressure.

So there are many powders that burn at the same rate as Unique. They would do just as poorly as Unique in the same situation. So the problem really is that powders of that burn rate are not matched well with 9mm and 38 Spcl. But people keep buying it because their dad and grand dad like it, and it's inexpensive.

Burn Rate is a term reloaders use to compare powders. It is FAR from an exact science, but can be useful for general comparisons. Here are some Burn Rate charts you ought to print out and keep in your Reloading Notebook. You'll note that none of them agree !! :

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf


Hope this helps. 

[baldrage]

+1 for Alliant Sport Pistol -- priced about the same as Titegroup, but not as dirty or hot in my guns.

+1 for Win 231/HP-38.  Can be used in wide variety of pistol calibers, relatively clean-burning, can be found virtually everywhere.

[SoCal]

Knowing what type of equipment you are using always helps.
If you are currently measuring each load with a scale (tiresome) how the powder meters does not matter.

[Goju]

To add to what Wobbly said, none of the burn rate charts should be used for anything other than a general reference to look for a new powder that has a similar burn rate, always using load data for the specific powder you are using.
The only thing you can trust on burn rate charts is how the manufacturers chart lists THEIR OWN powders burn rate relative to each other. Example - Accurate’s load manual specifically states that True Blue has a slower burn rate than Silhouette. The Graf’s and Hogdon charts show the opposite.

[George16]

+1 for Alliant Sport Pistol -- priced about the same as Titegroup, but not as dirty or hot in my guns.

+1 for Win 231/HP-38.  Can be used in wide variety of pistol calibers, relatively clean-burning, can be found virtually everywhere.

I have used these two powders exclusively for 9mm shooting minor in USPSA. Started off with Winchester 231 and switched over to Sport Pistol at the beginning of this year after I used up all my Winchester 231.

I have also tried CFE pistol in minor power factor but I use it exclusively to load for major power factor.

[Metal Wonder Nine Guy]

Thank you for the replies everyone! I really appreciate it!

For now, I just wanted to reload primarily plinking ammo, if that helps. Not sure if I'd want to do self defense ammo reloading.