Good starting powder for 9mm Luger and 38 special?

[Wobbly]

For now, I just wanted to reload primarily plinking ammo....

So when you reload with W231, Sport Pistol, or anything similar, you'll want to begin at the Starting Load. That probably will not operate the action, unless it's really "broken in" and well lubricated, or re-sprung, but read on.

Take the load range suggested in your manual and subtract Min from Max. With W231 that's going to be about 1.2gr which you will then divide by 5 or 6. So your load "increments" will be 0.2gr. Let's say your Starting Load is 3.8gr, that means the next increments will be 4.0gr, 4.2gr, and so on. No need to load Max Load because nothing good ever happens at Max Load. Follow all that ?

You'll only reload maybe 6 to 8 rounds at each load, using all the same brand of brass. Shoot each group at a new target which is a 2" dia BLACK dot, which you can generate and print on your computer. Use 30-45 feet as the distance and support your hands on something solid. Somewhere about the 3rd or 4th increment the accuracy will be incredible. That's your "accuracy load", which you can further refine by going back and doing 0.1gr increments in that area. You might find that 4.3gr is slightly more accurate than 4.4gr. Your true Accuracy Load is the lowest load that delivers the best results. Now record all that data in your reloading notebook.

So you found your accuracy load, but the pistol doesn't always lock open when the mag is empty. Most CZ pistols come with 18# recoil springs. Contact CZ Custom, CGW, or Wolff Spring and order the next 2 lighter springs, say a 16# and a 14#. Try your accuracy load again with lighter recoil springs. You want to use the strongest spring that always gives you lock back. (When you shoot factory ammo, you'll need to re-install the stock spring, so mark it somehow.)

It's a lot of special loads. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of walking back and forth at the range to retrieve targets. But it's a lot of fun because when you're finished you can confidently go ahead and load bulk amounts of ammo knowing that's what your gun really likes.

Results will change when you change bullets or powders. New parts call for a re-do. BUT, you'll be able to narrow your test samples considerably knowing that 124gr bullets with W231 do best within a certain range.

And that's how it's done. Hope this helps. 

[painter]

Almost all CZ 9mm pistols come with 14# recoil springs...not 18#.

I think Mr. W was swapping recoil and hammer springs in his mind.

[Wobbly]

Almost all CZ 9mm pistols come with 14# recoil springs...not 18#.

I think Mr. W was swapping recoil and hammer springs in his mind.

I stand corrected. I'm not a spring guy. I put a 12# spring in my SP-01 about 10 years ago and that was it.

Thanks for the information, Mr P.   

[bang bang]

if you are new to reloading, then just get what you can find off the shelf.   several good recommendations already.

but heres what i do.  note, its what "i" do.

 > i look at all of the calibers i will load for, maybe using the same powered or what powder will or can be used. 

 > i also look at the bullets i will use to.  Most of the times, its just plinking rounds so they are usually nothing heavy in that caliber, but on the lighter end of the selection.   

 > I use to use alot of lead, but after doing alot of scrubbing i choose to move to copper wash/plate and Jacketed. 

If you are new to reloading, then get what you can as suggested.  Try and see what you think.   Every powder has its +/- and you will eventually figure that out.  Even the type of powder, ball/extruded/flake..ect  will be different and again, you will figure out the +/- of each.  Even if one is not so meter friendly, if may find a good deal or it gives you great results you will probably opt for cost or accuracy. 

Even if you dont like what you buy the first round, you will always be able to use it for something, sometime, somewhere.   If you store it properly, you can have it for years.

Also, if you end up loading for different calibers you never know what a caliber will like over another.

[Unamower]

I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.

Personally, I use 231, Clays, HS6 and Titegroup. Clays doesn't work well in my PCC but these work well in all my handguns.

IMHO irregardless of what powder you choose proper loading technique and equipment are mandatory.

[recoilguy]

Titegroup is DIRTY - Hot - but really cheap and worth every penny. Some guys like that ………….

231 or HP-38 does everything a powder should do for 9mm shooting and is not expensive by any stretch especially if you pro rate it over the 1750 bullets you get per pound. I really like 231 and have a healthy supply on hand.

N-320 is the cleanest and in my opinion the best powder for loading 9mm bullets. It meters very nicely and it is clean when you shoot it.
It produces consistent PF bullets and the groups are close. It is a bit more expensive but again less then a penny a bullet more than 231.
I would use it all the time if I didn't shoot it faster than I can find it. I have 2# in reserve right now.

there are others like sport pistol I have tried and like but I don't need more than 2 kinds to choose from. It just gets too confusing for me then.

Good luck

RCG

[Wobbly]

I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.

The Plus side of looking at the Hodgdon web site is that you'll see data for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester powders all in one place.
The Downside is that you see only those 3, and some of that is 25 years old. And, web sites change daily.... what you see today on a web site may not be there tomorrow.

Hodgdon is a powder re-seller. Not being a powder manufacturer means they do very little testing to update or fill in gaps on their newest powders.

This is why we really want you to buy a good reloading manual, such as the Lyman #49 or #50. Lyman is NOT a powder maker or a bullet maker. Therefore, their manual has a good cross-section of tested brands and types from all the manufacturers. No web site can make that claim.


Bottom Line: Start with a hard copy manual. Then, fill in the gaps using the web sites to check on up-dated load info, powder recalls, and new bullet types. Always record new-to-you load info in your notebook and note the source.

 

[SoCal]

I like to review load data at Hodgdon's website when searching for load data.

 And, web sites change daily.... what you see today on a web site may not be there tomorrow.

This is why we really want you to buy a good reloading manual, such as the Lyman #49 or #50. Lyman is NOT a powder maker or a bullet maker. Therefore, their manual has a good cross-section of tested brands and types from all the manufacturers. No web site can make that claim.


Bottom Line: Start with a hard copy manual. Then, fill in the gaps using the web sites to check on up-dated load info, powder recalls, and new bullet types. Always record new-to-you load info in your notebook and note the source.

 

I agree totally with the Lyman hard copy, it's the best place to start.

Additionally some web sites such as VV makes it easy to copy and paste so you have the latest data AND have a record of past data.

[Unamower]

Hodgdon develops and updates their load data in their own lab using industry standard pressure test barrels and is an up to date reference to consider before load development. Just one of many to consider and not all things to all people and of course only includes their powders.

Western Powders does the same in their lab about 4 hours from here even though their powders are produced in Europe and elsewhere. They update and publish their load data at least every year.

I have every Hornady manual ever produced and reviewing a given specific load over the years they clearly change load parameters all the time. Typically they have been reducing the max charge listed.

Nothing whatsoever wrong with using a hardcopy manual but it's a snapshot of how things are at a given time.

Irregardless of your source proper load development will always be the best choice.

[EbedKabiru]

I personally haven't reloaded 38 special or 9mm Luger, but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads. Titegroup and Bullseye powder are also popular choices for 9mm Luger loads.

[Wobbly]

So it is true that Unique is dirty?

Yes, it's a slower burn rate powder. People use it in 38 Special only because it's "fluffy" (i.e. not very dense) and occupies a huge amount of physical volume. Thus it fills revolver cases very well. (Most revolver cases were designed for Black Powder which is very voluminous.)

38 Spcl and 45APC want a fast powder (like AA No.2) due to the very low cartridge chamber pressure, which is around 18,000psi. 9mm Luger, which is up around 33,000psi, burns it much better, but it's still too slow. Think of gun powder as a fuel. Whenever you burn fuel inefficiently, you end up with 1. unburned fuel (with a solid fuel that equals "trash"), and 2. lots of soot. If you've ever had a car, motorcycle or lawn mower that had a stuck choke, then you've seen the black smoky exhaust and black, sooty spark plugs. Same thing with a kerosene lantern. If the wick isn't correct, then you get lots of soot and not much light.

So yes, Unique is trashy and sooty because it's not being burned efficiently in 9mm, 38Spcl and 45ACP. That doesn't mean it's a "bad" powder. It might be great in 10Auto or 44Mag where it's pushing a 200-300gr bullet. So it's simply wrong for the cartridge application. In decades gone by (the 1970's & 80's), Bullseye and Unique were about the only pistol powders, so people had to "make due", but that is NOT the case now. There are a dozen or more excellent powders now available for 9mm. But some internet rumors and bad habits simply won't die.

When you say meter well, do you mean measuring the powder charge? Sorry for the silly questions.

No such thing as "silly questions". But this was already answered above...

Unique and Bullseye are both over 125 years old. They are "standards", but there are powders the same burn rate that are simply much easier to work with. Unique is OK in 38, but actually a tad too slow for 9mm. It also has coarse crystals that are known to "clump" inside the powder measure and not meter accurately. Bullseye does much better as a dual-use powder, but you can easily beat their handling and performance with more modern offerings.

True, since about year 2000, Unique got a more uniform powder grind that fixed some of the issues... but it will clump and remains far too slow of a burn rate to be effective in 9mm with 115 and 124gr bullets. It might start to have application in 147gr loads, but speedy loading for 147gr accounts for about 3% of all 9mm shooting. Unique doesn't have a flash suppressant, so why you'd want to use it in SD loads with 147gr when N340 and BE-86 are available is absolutely beyond comprehension.

These "modern powders" were pushed by the popularity of pistol competitions starting in the 1990's. People simply wanted something better, that burned efficiently so that their pistols wouldn't jam with trash after 80 rounds, that could be measured accurately round-after-round, and that would burn efficiently so that the least amount of powder could be used to do the job.

Do I own a can of Unique ? Why, yes. Do I use Unique for anything ? No. In fact my can is from ~1993, is the old paper can and marked "Hercules". I doubt the can has even been opened in the last 10 years !! 

 

[Wobbly]

I personally haven't reloaded 38 Special or 9mm Luger, but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads. Titegroup and Bullseye powder are also popular choices for 9mm Luger loads.

1) Welcome from Georgia.

Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the sticky posts in the 'New Members' Forum and also the 'Important Information' sub-section.


2)

...but I've heard good things about Unique powder for pistol loads.

With all due respect, "pistol loads" range from 25ACP all the way to 10mmAuto and 9x23 Winchester. That covers a super WIDE range of chamber pressures and calls for a whole array of powders. Your statement is 1. based on hearsay/internet rumor, and 2. far too general in scope.

[NeedCZ]

I'm a noob reloaded too and am using HP38 for 38/357. I don't have any other powder to compare it against, but am very happy with the accuracy I'm getting with it, certainly no worse than I get from factory ammo. 

[Ron IL]

Unique and Bullseye are my old favorite powders.  You can use them in almost anything.  But I haven't seen either in the store for a long time.  I dislike Titegroup totally.  It heats up the gun too hot very quickly and easy to double charge you load and blow up the gun.  Since the only thing showing up at our local store is HP-38 and 231 which are the same powder under different brand names.  Winchester is about $5 more than 231.  Same powder.  I am now using it in both 9 and 38.  The best bullets I use for 38 is a Double Ended Wad Cutter (DEWC) in 148 grain cast TEK coated bullets.  The one I have been using lately is Brazos Button Nose Wad Cutter (BNWC).  It is the same as the double ended except it has a small flat nose on it.  Brazos has their bullets priced by the pound and a box of those 38's has about 700 in the box for the same price everyone else sells a box of 500 for.  Enjoy the reloading.  I love doing it.  It is part of the shooting hobby if you have time.  The 38 to me is the easiest one to reload.  Not much physical labor involved and pretty forgiving on the loading specs.  Right now I am using the same load of 231 for both the 38 and the 9mm.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

  I dislike Titegroup totally.  It heats up the gun too hot very quickly and easy to double charge you load and blow up the gun.

The entirety of your post leaves something to be desired but I'll concentrate on the above statement ONLY. This is a terrible if not completely irresponsible statement. Many people use this powder in a safe and effective fashion and what your statement calls into question ENTIRELY is your overall handloading practices. You are the one responsible for the proper dispensing of powder not the powder. Check, recheck , and triple check if need be but proper charging of cases and ALL other aspects of handloading are the sole the responsibility of the person assembling the cases.