Author Topic: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo  (Read 2429 times)

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Offline 3xternal

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New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« on: December 02, 2019, 09:10:50 PM »


Manticore Arms has announced a new suppressor system called Venom which they’ve designed specifically for CZ Scorpion EVO 3 pistols. The system consists of a suppressor core integrated into the replacement handguard. It will be manufactured and sold by Rat Worx (Research And Testing Worx, Inc.). The overall design concept is similar to the 9mm Tavor handguard/suppressor shown several years ago which was also the result of the collaboration of Manticore Arms and Rat Worx.



The Venom suppressor/handguard is a drop-in part designed to be used with CZ Scorpion EVO 3 pistols and SBRs with factory 7 3/4? barrels. It is also compatible with CZ USA Scorpion EVO Bullpup Kit. In order to install the Venom, you’ll first need to remove the factory handguard and muzzle device, then install the mounting block, included new muzzle device and handguard, and lastly slide in the suppressor core and fix it in place with the eight screws.



The Venom suppressor is machined out of 6061 aluminum and has a mil-spec Type III  hard coat anodized finish. The muzzle device that comes with the kit is made of stainless steel. The forend length is 12? and the assembled system weighs in at 32 oz. According to the company, the Venom “adds 20.0 ounces of weight and only 4.0” of length over the OEM pistol forend and muzzle device and only 10.0 ounces of weight and no additional length over the OEM carbine forend with flash can extension“.

Read more:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/12/02/new-venom-suppressor-for-cz-scorpion-evo-3-by-manticore-arms-and-rat-worx/

Offline peanuts2018

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2019, 12:54:52 AM »


Manticore Arms has announced a new suppressor system called Venom which they’ve designed specifically for CZ Scorpion EVO 3 pistols. The system consists of a suppressor core integrated into the replacement handguard. It will be manufactured and sold by Rat Worx (Research And Testing Worx, Inc.). The overall design concept is similar to the 9mm Tavor handguard/suppressor shown several years ago which was also the result of the collaboration of Manticore Arms and Rat Worx.



The Venom suppressor/handguard is a drop-in part designed to be used with CZ Scorpion EVO 3 pistols and SBRs with factory 7 3/4? barrels. It is also compatible with CZ USA Scorpion EVO Bullpup Kit. In order to install the Venom, you’ll first need to remove the factory handguard and muzzle device, then install the mounting block, included new muzzle device and handguard, and lastly slide in the suppressor core and fix it in place with the eight screws.



The Venom suppressor is machined out of 6061 aluminum and has a mil-spec Type III  hard coat anodized finish. The muzzle device that comes with the kit is made of stainless steel. The forend length is 12? and the assembled system weighs in at 32 oz. According to the company, the Venom “adds 20.0 ounces of weight and only 4.0” of length over the OEM pistol forend and muzzle device and only 10.0 ounces of weight and no additional length over the OEM carbine forend with flash can extension“.

Read more:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/12/02/new-venom-suppressor-for-cz-scorpion-evo-3-by-manticore-arms-and-rat-worx/
Hell for 500 bucks I'm interested

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Offline John A.

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2019, 09:59:07 AM »
I'm very glad to see that ratworx incorporated an internal muzzlebrake in their 9mm design.

To my knowledge they are the first commercial manufacturer to do that.  I know the internal brake on the 9mm Form 1 that I use on my scorpion serves to split some of the gas off before moving through the bore, and to act as a sacrificial baffle to help protect the monocore from the erosion that one would normally see.

Before anyone jumps up and says that 6061 is a poor grade aluminum to use on 9mm baffles, I would add that I used it in my 2nd 9mm can almost 15 years ago and with several thousands of rounds down the pipe, has held up very well and will outlast me.

Also, where heat is concerned by using the handguard as the main suppressor tube body, I would also add that it takes A LOT to heat it up to uncomfortable levels.

I think there should be a gen2 that covers the entire handguard to allow folks to port some of the gas over the barrel and make a ratworx scorpion SD design.   Not enough to slow down supersonic bullets down into subsonic levels, but to do nothing more than bleed off some of the gas while it's in the barrel where it's the highest pressure in order to make the baffles and suppressor more efficient.

Just a few observations and comments because I'm not saying it's going to be bad, but I'm sure that making a reflex/integral chamber would certainly make it better.  In order to use mlok or keymod attachments, you can make the reflex chamber a smaller "diameter" to still accommodate the rail nuts and still have ample room to catch the ported gas.
When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline Border Dave

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2019, 03:49:42 PM »
I think there should be a gen2 that covers the entire handguard to allow folks to port some of the gas over the barrel and make a ratworx scorpion SD design.   Not enough to slow down supersonic bullets down into subsonic levels, but to do nothing more than bleed off some of the gas while it's in the barrel where it's the highest pressure in order to make the baffles and suppressor more efficient.

Do you think there would be any benefit to porting the barrel before installing this suppressor?

Offline John A.

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2019, 03:55:16 PM »
No, if you look at the handguard, with the slots/holes, there is nothing to contain the gas over the barrel.

Plus, I don't think you'd be legally allowed to add anything after the fact because you can't add length to a suppressor and that would certainly be adding length by installing a short tube to take up the difference behind it to the receiver.

When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline Border Dave

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 04:07:42 PM »
I just spoke with Chris at Rarworx.  He said that the Venom could be damaged if used with a ported barrel.  He said that their muzzle device is designed to direct the escaping gasses into the suppressor.

Offline Border Dave

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 04:12:50 PM »
Oh, he also said their system is designed to work with the factory 18mm threads, so if you’re like me and had your 1st gen Scorpion machined to accept 1/2-28 make sure you still have at least 1/4 inch of 18mm threading left.  That shouldn’t be a problem for most people who are still using the factory 18mm barrel nut since that nut requires about 1/4 inch of threads.

Offline John A.

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 04:17:48 PM »
From all I can tell from the pics above, it does not look like a reflex design.  If it is, certainly not any farther back than the muzzle attachment and the rear of the monocore baffle.

I was talking about making a true integral suppressor with the barrel ported and captured above the barrel behind the monocore baffle.  Which would be a simple redesign and barely any work at all.
When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline peanuts2018

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 04:22:33 PM »
From all I can tell from the pics above, it does not look like a reflex design.  If it is, certainly not any farther back than the muzzle attachment and the rear of the monocore baffle.

I was talking about making a true integral suppressor with the barrel ported and captured above the barrel behind the monocore baffle.  Which would be a simple redesign and barely any work at all.
If your gonna do all that might as well go with the innovative arms integeral. For 500 more

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Offline John A.

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 04:41:05 PM »
The owner/user can't do anything to it.

But I'm talking about a design standpoint.
When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline 3xternal

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2019, 07:02:43 AM »
I'm guessing they left the integral scene to innovative arms.
That said, my IA-SC9 was only $750, which included the barrel work, however, I already had the HB handguard.

Offline Manticore_Arms

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 12:53:20 PM »
Hey guys, there are a lot of good observations in this thread, especially by John A.  and I thought I would go over the design of the Venom Suppressor to explain in a little more detail.

For those that don't know, I am Sven at Manticore Arms, and I designed the Venom Suppressor.

The goal of the project and the design was to make a suppressor with the shortest added length and largest overall volume without requiring "permanent" modifications to the gun ( i.e. drilled barrel or anything that caused it to not be able to be fired without the suppressor core installed), and that was easily installed, serviceable, and removable by the end user, and that was at a price point we felt was reasonable in comparison to the base cost of the scorpion. 


The suppressor core does sleeve over the barrel (or rather the muzzle device) a bit.  This accomplishes two things in one use- first it acts as the alignment system between the bore and the suppressor core to keep everyting co-centric, and second it acts as additional valume.  The reason it does not sleeve  father back is the weight per volume gained started to go up substantially, and the core itself is designed to a length the will work on a shorter forend for the Micro EVO that will be a follow up release.  :)

The muzzle device itself is what takes the brunt of the particulate and initial blast from uncorking- it is essentially the blast baffle you see on other suppressors.

The only purpose of a ported barrel is to keep your bullet velocity down to (theoretically) subsonic levels, but with the vast availability of heavier and subsonic rounds today, I personally do not think that there is a lot of added advantage to the extra cost, complexity, and one way direction of  drilling the barrel to make all rounds subsonic.  With a standard barrel you can run subsonic if you want it quiet, and run the hottest rounds you want for more hitting power downrange.  Either way the suppressor will still reduce the sound even if you have a supersonic crack.  If you want to get a ported barrel setup there are options out there, my personal take is non-ported is the way to go.

As to how we can slide a core into the forend and not have gas leakage at the interface of the two surfaces- the fitment is carefully toleranced, but more to the point the gas goes where it is easiest to flow- out the bore hole.  This concept was tested and proven out in the earlier ZRX suppressor for the Tavor SAR 9mm which Ratworx put out about 5 years ago, and the simple truth is even if there was a tiny amount of gas leakage at the interface....it doesn't affect anything.  The gas is still contained and released slowly as it cools.




Sven
Manticore Arms



« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 01:10:17 PM by Manticore_Arms »

Offline John A.

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 02:04:58 PM »
I agree that it is stupid to try to port the barrel to bleed off enough gas to drop a supersonic (115 or 124 gr) pill down to subsonic levels.

For one, supersonic bullets have more powder and build more pressure which already handicaps a suppressor and makes it less efficient from the get-go.

Secondly, starting with a subsonic bullet and powder load, you don't generally have to worry about the occasional supersonic crack you'll get from longer barrels.  While keeping with the short pistol length barrel (or shorter) you'll never have to worry about 147, 158, or 165 gr bullets going super on you from it.

I do however disagree that porting the barrel does nothing.  On the contrary, any bit of gas that you can port behind the suppressor over the barrel, is going to make the suppressor more efficient because it is going to have less gas to deal with every time you pull the trigger.  You don't necessarily have to port the gas to only drop the velocity to useless levels.  You can certainly port some of the gas for this without killing your velocity.  Even with a meager 30-45 fps drop will sound a lot better.  There are some brands of ammo where I get that much velocity shift from nothing more than shooting different brands of ammo.

As for the extra weight, even a thinwall aluminum tube would contain the gas ported over the barrel without gaining much weight at all.

If you'd like to talk more in PM or on the phone, I'd have no problem helping you out if you'd like or are interested.  I have an extensive background in making integral cans.  I'm waiting on a stamp now to make a 9x39 integral as we speak.







« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 03:09:10 PM by John A. »
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Offline Asylum9

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 02:14:42 PM »
In the article they mentioned an msrp of $500. Is that going to include the handguard and everything needed to get it up and  running?

What's the total length end up being? I know it says it add 4" from the handguard but the flash can model or the slant nose? The photo almost looks rifle length.

Is there any way to get this to work for those of us that replaced, threaded (just about anyone with a Gen 1)or have the shorter micro barrel?
Great job btw! Even more impressive if it stays at $500 or under. Finally an endcap that won't spin off!
ApIII%

Offline Manticore_Arms

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Re: New Venom Suppressor by RAT Worx and Manticore for Scorpion Evo
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 02:35:41 PM »
In the article they mentioned an msrp of $500. Is that going to include the handguard and everything needed to get it up and  running?

What's the total length end up being? I know it says it add 4" from the handguard but the flash can model or the slant nose? The photo almost looks rifle length.

Is there any way to get this to work for those of us that replaced, threaded (just about anyone with a Gen 1)or have the shorter micro barrel?
Great job btw! Even more impressive if it stays at $500 or under. Finally an endcap that won't spin off!

MSRP is $449, and that includes the suppressor core, forend with mounting block, and muzzle device.  Yes, you are getting a full forend AND suppressor for $449.  :)

The Venom  forend is 12" OAL - it is 4" longer than the OEM polymer pistol forend, and the exact same length as the OEM polymer carbine forend.    It is actually a hair shorter than the EVO's set up with the carbine forend and KAK flash can as the flash can pokes out about 1/2" farther than the polymer carbine forend.  :)

It will work with both the 18mm threaded earlier Scorpion EVO pistol barrels and the later dula 1/2 x 28 and 18mm threaded barrels.   As for those who had some kind of custom work done on their pistol barrel, I can't really answer to that as different people may have used different solutions including different final barrel length.  If you just put 1/2 x 28 threading on in place of the original 188, we *might* have as solution based on the next line below.

A version for the Micro EVO is coming, so if you already did some mods to your barrel or you don't want the extra length, you will be able to cut down to Micro EVO barrel length and threading specs and that version will work.  In a nutshell it is the same suppressor core, same muzzle device, and just has a shorter forend designed for the EVO Micro length barrel.  More details will follow when we are ready to launch it at Rat Worx. 

Sven
Manticore Arms