Muti-discipline, or multi-use recipes for CZ 9mm pistols

[Gnnut2]

Quote from, Copemech:

"What's the best powder (X) to use in 9mm Luger (Y) for minor power factor action pistol shooting (Z)?  Steel Challenge?  Range plinking?  50 yard precision target shooting?  Home defense?"

I borrowed this idea from Copemech after reading his response from an older topic. I think this is an excellent idea for some good discussion about favorite and proven loads for the 9mm Luger. I am not a competition shooter. I shoot on my own property for fun and target practice. I'm thinking about buying some steel targets and reaching out a little further. Currently, I have WSF, 231, Vectan Ba9 (approx. the same burn rate as WSF), and AA#5 (approx. the same burn rate as N330).

Gnnut2

[Crawl]

People are having success with Sport Pistol powder and costed bullets like Blue Bullets, Acme, and Precision Bullets. Can't load it much over Minor PF, low flash (doesn't deposit as much vaporized lead in your barrel), consistent.

CZs are built around 124gr RN, but you won't notice a difference from 115gr through 147gr unless you shoot competitively, a lot. Even then, the difference is the recoil profile (unless your particular gun happens to be unique enough to prefer a certain bullet).

For general use, 115gr coated lead from whoever gives you the best deal.

[newageroman]

Agreed. Sport pistol for me- N320 is good also. 124 PDs. They are accurate enough to bust clays on the 50 yd berm. Next up would be xtremes, and blue bullets.

[Earl Keese]

I use Sport Pistol with 135gr coated lead bullets for Steel Challenge. Can't recommend anything for 50yd precision shooting as that isn't my focus. I don't load my own HD rounds, for those I use Federal HST 124's.

[Wobbly]

Agreed.

• The new all-around powder seems to be Alliant Sport Pistol.
It's right in the W231/VV N320 speed range (top 124gr speeds ~1090fps). It meters well. It has conservative loads (4-5gr). It's generally priced below the competitors. Available in 1, 4 & 8lb packages.
https://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/sport-pistol.aspx


• If you need slightly slower, then Alliant BE-86 has that filled too.
Rumored to have been originally developed for Speer factory SD loads, it does everything like Sport Pistol at a slightly slower burn rate resulting in faster bullet speeds (top 124gr speeds ~1190fps). Available in 1 & 8lb packages.
https://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/be-86.aspx

[Gnnut2]

People are having success with Sport Pistol powder and costed bullets like Blue Bullets, Acme, and Precision Bullets. Can't load it much over Minor PF, low flash (doesn't deposit as much vaporized lead in your barrel), consistent.

Crawl,

Could you define the term Minor PF for me? I'm going to guess it means Minor Performance Factor. If I'm wrong been there, done that many times.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge on this subject. I believe Alliant's Sport Pistol wins the propellant of choice award here. I'm going to try it.

I'm also going to check out the bullets that have been mentioned here. I have read good things here about the 124g PD bullets, but I'm not familiar with some of the others. What do I need to look for in buying a coated bullet? I have read mfg claims in regards to leading and accuracy. Also, is safe and reliable reloading data available for these?

[CzechnoWizard]

I think local availability has to be a significant consideration. I can get Hodgdon products quite easily but other brands are more difficult to find. I happen to think vihtavouri 3n37 is right up there with bourbon and boobs, but its harder to find than Pappy van winkle or Kate Upton so I mostly use the Hodgdon line. CFE Pistol has been very handy for me, as has Universal Clay's. I agree with 124grain being optimal though prefer them with flat points. "Coated" bullets have it all over plain lead, but jackets lead to nasty splash back off steel so I prefer plated bullets. BERRY'S  specifically. Federal primers are like hens teeth but they work in the most highly modified cz ignition systems so I seek them out and horde as needed.

[Novercalis]

I haven’t loaded 9mm for a while but tightgroup, unique and power pistol have been my usual go to powders.

[Crawl]

Blue Bullets sponsors a number of matches and competitors, including national champions, who load Blue Bullets. Some bullet companies use the same coating as other companies, some use proprietary coatings.

I've had good results with both Blue Bullets and Acme (accurate, easy to load, no leading), but I recently bought a few boxes from Precision Bullets because they're near Dallas and I like to buy from Texans. However, I'm also curious to use their bullets because I like the idea of their coating technology. Check out their website to see what I mean (hammer test video).

Precision Delta makes good stuff, but coated lead is just so cheap. If you want peak accuracy, many people would tell you to use a jacketed hollow point (Hornady HAP seems to be great), but if course it isn't cheap.

You could use plated bullets or FMJ, but coated lead is cheaper and just as accurate for me.

As far as load data, if you're using coated bullets, use load data for lead bullets.

(THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS NOT GOOD ADVICE AND MAY RESULT IN INJURY IF YOU DON'T USE YOUR BRAIN)

In my experience, it isn't really possible to put too much Sport Pistol into a 9mm cartridge.

This doesn't mean that you should try loading the case full of powder. It just means that it's a rather safe powder, in my limited experience. I generally load barely more than 4 gr of powder, and when I have loaded more, the velocity increase is minimal. It just isn't a powder that works for loading anything much faster than Minor PF.

Considering that pistol bullet velocity is more or less only relevant to defense projectiles, Minor/Major PF competition rules, or for knocking down steel (some people like using truncated cone or flat point bullets for knocking steel down a little more easily), trying to squeeze velocity from Sport Pistol is pointless. Load adjustments are more like "refining" your velocity. Just load it to a PF of no less than 130 and go shoot.

Shooting at 50 yards should be no problem with a load your guns like.

For home defense, I'd suggest using Federal HST. I have shot a lot of Precision Delta defense ammo, and I don't have any complaints about it, but HST is proven.


Bonus ramble:

I also buy a lot of ammo from Expansion Ammunition for training classes and competitions. They sell their own powder, and it has about the same load data as Titegroup. Having bleep so much of their stuff, I know their powder is really versatile and doesn't have much of a downside.

[Wobbly]

I'm also going to check out the bullets that have been mentioned here. I have read good things here about the 124g PD bullets, but I'm not familiar with some of the others. What do I need to look for in buying a coated bullet? I have read mfg claims in regards to leading and accuracy. Also, is safe and reliable reloading data available for these?

So to answer any of that, you're going to need to repeat some of the info you may have already given us. Namely your press, powder measure and dies. See our suggested Template for asking such questions.

Ogive Type
Conical or SWC types make cleaner holes in paper, but must agree with your Seating Die anvil. For all their excellence, Dillon dies don't have a great solution for the Conical shapes. OAL and proper, centered seating to insure good flight and feeding become concerns. When in doubt, defer to RN for the CZ. CZ feed ramps do not enjoy FPRN, as commonly provided for 357Sig bullets.

Lead Bullets
First lead bullets simply add a lot more smoke and require a lot more gun cleaning. Bullet fit is your Number One concern. If the seated bullet is not sized for your barrel, then you're screwed. You got to first find out the size of your barrel so you can buy the right size. Coatings (of any sort) can help this quite a bit, but lead will still be in the barrel at some point. Leading can be reduced by staying away from "super fast" (hot burning) powders. However, lead bullets do offer significant cost savings.... you simply have a host of other questions to answer first. I highly suggest you stay away from the LEE FCD (factory crimp die) when working with any type of lead bullets.

Plated Bullets
Plated may seem like a good solution for fit, smoke, and leading, but often times their delivered price, especially in volume, can be more than a great jacketed. And that's their major down-side. Time must be spent on obtaining correct Taper Crimp since the thin coating can be broken through.

Jacketed Bullets
All bullet issues are most easily overcome by using jacketed bullets, especially JHP. The excellent fit and crisp corner on the base of the shank means that JHP are your go-to, ultimate, long distance accuracy answer. But again, ability to buy in discounted bulk (usually 3000+) to get the price down becomes a key factor. Look to Rocky Mountain Reloading, Zero and Precision Delta. Large bulk buys, while handy, mean more testing up front so that you know all the OAL limitations before you get "married". Your postman will also not like you too much.

Bullet Weight
Most 9mm barrel twist rates are set up for 124/125gr bullets. If you don't have a significant preference, then 124gr is the standard, work horse weight. 115gr can offer a flatter trajectory on longer ranges. 147gr can offer softer recoil, but WILL introduce seating issues in the shallow CZ chamber. Choices of 147gr are therefore highly limited. A great way to get around this when a heavy bullet is desired, is to go with 135gr bullets listed under 38Super.


Hope this helps. 

[Dan_69GTX]

Lead Bullets
First lead bullets simply add a lot more smoke and require a lot more gun cleaning. Bullet fit is your Number One concern. If the seated bullet is not sized for your barrel, then you're screwed. You got to first find out the size of your barrel so you can buy the right size. Coatings (of any sort) can help this quite a bit, but lead will still be in the barrel at some point. Leading can be reduced by staying away from "super fast" (hot burning) powders. However, lead bullets do offer significant cost savings.... you simply have a host of other questions to answer first. I highly suggest you stay away from the LEE FCD (factory crimp die) when working with any type of lead bullets.

As ususal Wobbly is spot on.

You will have to try different bullets to figure out what is best for YOUR gun.   I've tried a bunch and they work to different degrees in different guns.  I can NOT use a coated bullet in my CZ Target 2.  There is always leading until I go to a .358 bullet, but then I had issues with the ogive/OAL.  So I will stay with the PD JHP for that gun.  You wanna experiment - I've done it - it is FUN!!!  Get a little leading in your barrel using sport pistol - try using Tightgroup.  Watch what happens to the leading (a lot more).  Kinda cool to see the cause/effect of stuff.  But then I'm wired that way.

So all this to say - slug your barrel, buy/borrow a few, and try coated.  Just because that one bullet doesn't work doesn't mean you can't do coated.  All depends on the gun.

Yes - I exclusively use coated in some guns.

[Gnnut2]

I appreciate all of your comments and advice regarding this topic. Your comments certainly reflect different views and objectives. This is the ingredient that makes this forum so great. The advantages/disadvantages of each type of bullet has been discussed here based on real experiences.

Wobbly, I'll look at the template you mentioned, but I can tell you about my reloading equipment. I use a Redding T6 turret press, Redding BR3 powder measure, and predominately Redding dies covering most older standard calibers. I don't own any of the short magnum stuff or the newer 6.5 variants. I have loaded a lot of rifle cases in the past for hunting and target shooting.

[Wobbly]

I can tell you about my reloading equipment. I use a Redding T6 turret press, Redding BR3 powder measure, and predominately Redding dies covering most older standard calibers.

Great equipment ! That's all I need to know.

What I can tell you is that the Redding dies (at least that I've used) won't have any trouble with conicals, such as the PD JHP or Hornady XTP. There will be variations in a hand operated powder measure, but you should have already mastered that.

 

[CzechnoWizard]

I'm also going to check out the bullets that have been mentioned here. I have read good things here about the 124g PD bullets, but I'm not familiar with some of the others. What do I need to look for in buying a coated bullet? I have read mfg claims in regards to leading and accuracy. Also, is safe and reliable reloading data available for these?

So to answer any of that, you're going to need to repeat some of the info you may have already given us. Namely your press, powder measure and dies. See our suggested Template for asking such questions.

Ogive Type
Conical or SWC types make cleaner holes in paper, but must agree with your Seating Die anvil. For all their excellence, Dillon dies don't have a great solution for the Conical shapes. OAL and proper, centered seating to insure good flight and feeding become concerns. When in doubt, defer to RN for the CZ. CZ feed ramps do not enjoy FPRN, as commonly provided for 357Sig bullets.

Lead Bullets
First lead bullets simply add a lot more smoke and require a lot more gun cleaning. Bullet fit is your Number One concern. If the seated bullet is not sized for your barrel, then you're screwed. You got to first find out the size of your barrel so you can buy the right size. Coatings (of any sort) can help this quite a bit, but lead will still be in the barrel at some point. Leading can be reduced by staying away from "super fast" (hot burning) powders. However, lead bullets do offer significant cost savings.... you simply have a host of other questions to answer first. I highly suggest you stay away from the LEE FCD (factory crimp die) when working with any type of lead bullets.

Plated Bullets
Plated may seem like a good solution for fit, smoke, and leading, but often times their delivered price, especially in volume, can be more than a great jacketed. And that's their major down-side. Time must be spent on obtaining correct Taper Crimp since the thin coating can be broken through.

Jacketed Bullets
All bullet issues are most easily overcome by using jacketed bullets, especially JHP. The excellent fit and crisp corner on the base of the shank means that JHP are your go-to, ultimate, long distance accuracy answer. But again, ability to buy in discounted bulk (usually 3000+) to get the price down becomes a key factor. Look to Rocky Mountain Reloading, Zero and Precision Delta. Large bulk buys, while handy, mean more testing up front so that you know all the OAL limitations before you get "married". Your postman will also not like you too much.

Bullet Weight
Most 9mm barrel twist rates are set up for 124/125gr bullets. If you don't have a significant preference, then 124gr is the standard, work horse weight. 115gr can offer a flatter trajectory on longer ranges. 147gr can offer softer recoil, but WILL introduce seating issues in the shallow CZ chamber. Choices of 147gr are therefore highly limited. A great way to get around this when a heavy bullet is desired, is to go with 135gr bullets listed under 38Super.


Hope this helps. 

I'm not usually in the business of disagreeing with the great and mighty Wobbly so I'll simply say that I am offering another viewpoint based on my own experiences.

I run 124gr HBFP-TP   by the thousands thru the following cz pistols with zero feed ramp issues:  75 stainless, p07,p09,p01,sp01,p10c.

I buy plated bullets in fairly small qty (1000) at a time and take advantage of sales and promotions to keep my costs below most jacketed bullets.

I use a lee fcd in 9mm and am quite pleased with the results. I prefer to seat and crimp in separate stations so that I can optimize adjustments on each.  I've never seen a problem with plating cut-thru.  Even if it did happen,  the plating is fused to the bullet unlike jackets which can exhibit separation.  Accuracy has been phenomenal, regularly producing targets with a single ragged hole where the bull used to be.

I occasionally load 147 grain and seat on the exact same setting as a 115 or 124 rn. I've never had an issue with  the short chamber specific to 147 grain. Its purely a function of the nose shape.  Fp definitely must be seated to shorter oal than rn but the only thing to watch on 147gr is case capacity. The longer bullet eats up space in the case when seated to same oal as a 115. Stay within published data for 147 and this will already be accounted for.

I think its safe to say individual results may vary!

[Wobbly]

I'm not usually in the business of disagreeing with the great and mighty Wobbly so I'll simply say that I am offering another viewpoint based on my own experiences.

Please don't ever mistake being the most vocal as being the wise-est or most educated on this subject. (That would make me too much like our vaunted mass media!) I learn stuff every day from you guys. I REALLY appreciate the feedback. I learn by polite discussion. I am asking to be corrected. I'm inviting dissension. I want to learn from your ideas, and that won't happen unless you do respond. So thank you.

I run 124gr HBFP-TP  by the thousands thru the following CZ pistols with zero feed ramp issues:  75 stainless, p07,p09,p01,sp01,p10c.

Well then, that makes 2 of us !



Understand please, my statements here are gross generalities out of necessity. The OP has not mentioned any brands or type to nail him down, where we can talk specifics. So I therefore must assume he's fixing to order 2500 Jim-Bobs Bullets of unknown size, weight and shape, which none of us have ever tried, just because some Yahoo at the gun club cornered him and talked him into it. This has happened to me; I have to assume others get treated the same.

And then too, you are discussing a conical shape bullet, which I have presented as not having issues in the CZ chamber if you do the proper prep work AND if your dies will support their proper seating. This is why I asked him specifics on his Seating dies.

I buy plated bullets in fairly small qty (1000) at a time and take advantage of sales and promotions to keep my costs below most jacketed bullets.

OK let's compare....
• Berry 124gr HBFP-TP (discounted from Graf & Sons) is $86 + $9.95 shipping. Or ~$96/1000
• Precision Delta 124gr JHP is $89/1000 when you buy 2000 + FREE shipping.  Or $89/1000
Maybe your sale prices are lower, and that's fine. But again, I'm talking in gross generalities (because the OP certainly is) about what you can order day-in and day-out. Black Friday was not ever mentioned.

I use a lee FCD in 9mm and am quite pleased with the results. I prefer to seat and crimp in separate stations so that I can optimize adjustments on each.  I've never seen a problem with plating cut-thru. Even if it did happen, the plating is fused to the bullet unlike jackets which can exhibit separation.

• I'm glad you use the Lee FCD to great effect. It's fairly easy on plated bullets if you follow the setup. But more than one brother here has had to ditch the FCD because it was taking their correctly ordered 0.357" lead bullet and knocking the diameter back to 0.355" during the crimp process. Again, due to the wide ranging discussion, I have to assume the OP might order lead bullets.

• You don't see plating being cut exactly because you use Berry Thick Plated bullets. (That's what the "TP" stands for.) Bullets with 2x and 3x the plating thickness of Rainier and Frontier plated bullets. Again, I'm having to talk in generalities. You alone have focused on the plated bullet with the thickest plating on the market. Maybe that's the reason it's not a problem for you.

• You need to try over-crimping cut rate plated bullets some time. What you'll get is a break in the plating that disintegrates as the bullet travels down the barrel. What you'll see is a bullet hole in the target, surrounded by hundreds of tiny holes. That's the copper plating coming off the bullet and acting like shrapnel.

I occasionally load 147 grain and seat on the exact same setting as a 115 or 124 RN. I've never had an issue with  the short chamber specific to 147 grain. Its purely a function of the nose shape.  FP definitely must be seated to shorter OAL than RN but the only thing to watch on 147gr is case capacity. The longer bullet eats up space in the case when seated to same OAL as a 115. Stay within published data for 147 and this will already be accounted for.

• Who's 147gr bullet ? Now you've reversed the discussion from specifics toward generalities. I can only assume this is (again) the wonderful bullets from Berry Mfg. And Berry just happens to make the one and only line of bullets, I'm aware of, that you can do that with. So if you are talking about Berry RN then I entirely agree. But I will gladly send you some 124gr and 147gr RN bullets that cannot do that.

• This last statement I will need to call you on. The load data (both powder and OAL) is merely a report of what they did in the lab. The listed OAL is NEVER a recommendation. All you need to prove that to yourself is use the OAL for XTP right out of the Hornady book. It doesn't work in the CZ at all. Or try using the suggested or "normal" OAL with RMR 124gr RN.

I think its safe to say individual results may vary!

Yes. But we are in 99% agreement. However, you must concede this one point....
• The OP is talking in generalities.
• I am answering the OP in generalities.
• You are talking about specific bullets, which are a far better grade than the norm. And you are placing these in specific processes and situations. Of course your results vary, and are actually stellar. So, once statements are clarified, I simply don't see any "disagreement". We are in fact, on the same exact page. 


All the best.