Old Tanfoglio Witness?

[Mainegrw]

Happy Saturday Evening All,

New member here, I am hoping you all might be able to help date a Tanfoglio Witness I picked up in my travels today. It's definitely older, very reminiscent of the Tanfoglio TA90 I used to have, but I'm not sure if they're in the same generation or not. Not looking for an exact year here, just really a generation or ballpark production timeframe, and maybe some information on the model.

I've attached a photo with the post for you all to see, however here's the specs as I know them: the gun features an all steel construction, with what looks and feels like a melonite finish. Barrel length is 4.5", stamped "CAL. 9 PARA" on the chamber. "CAL 9" also appears on the right side of the slide as well. Frame is marked "WITNESS, EAA - HIALEAH - FLA" as well as "F.T. = Made in Italy" or the left side of the frame. On the right side is the serial number AE246XX and a warning to read instructions before use.

She feels real good in the hand, and if she shoots anything like the laser of a TA90 I had, it will be a worthwhile pick up. Will be hitting the range tomorrow, first I need to pick up some mags in the morning as the gun did not come with any.

Thoughts?

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[Mainegrw]

Update:

I got out to the range this morning, and I was not disappointed. I picked up a Magnum Research Baby Eagle mag at the LGS for it on the way, this choice was because it was half the price of a CZ mag. The gun functioned flawlessly with it, so I'm probably going to buy more. You are probably wondering why the Witness had no mags with it when I bought it, unfortunately I live in a capacity restricted state, and the seller only had high-capacity mags for it. I had however gotten the price knocked down because if it.

The gun has a lot of potential I think, with not a single failure of any type in the 50 rounds I shot through it this morning. It's a little hard to judge today, as I slipped and fell half way down the basement stairs yesterday and bruised up my hand pretty good in the process. My grouping was reasonable, but the range time was a bit painful, so I kept it short.


Also, I happened to notice the recall info posted in a sticky about a firing pin problem. I'm going to call EAA tomorrow about it, I'd hope they could tell me if mine's been done already. What exactly is the problem? I get that there's condition where the firing pin can get stuck  protruding from the breech face causing the gun to go full auto, but what is the cause of this and what is the difference between the new and old pins?

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[Model Citizen]

My Witness looks just like yours except it has a trigger guard that is not oval/hooked. It is rounded in front & similar to a 1911 or BHP.
My ser# is AE49XXX  The magazine lookup site says it was imported in 11-30-94
On the sticky Italian clone date code it is stamped BD with a square around the BD on the bottom heel of the pistol. Kind of hard to see. The BD letters mean manufactured in ‘94
The date code might be in a different place on yours, but the letter code  should be year of manufacture.
Hope this helps.

[the war wagon]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice... I bought my Witness in the spring of '92.  GREAT shooter, and you could ALWAYS get 18 rounds, in the factory 15 round mags!   

I think you'll enjoy it for some time to come.  If the sights are "on," it's VERY accurate.

[Mainegrw]

My ser# is AE49XXX  The magazine lookup site says it was imported in 11-30-94
On the sticky Italian clone date code it is stamped BD with a square around the BD on the bottom heel of the pistol. Kind of hard to see. The BD letters mean manufactured in ‘94
The date code might be in a different place on yours, but the letter code  should be year of manufacture.

Thanks for the info! I went to EAA's site last night and used the magazine finder tool to get info on my gun. It was imported on 03/15/1993. I did also go looking all over the gun for the proof date code as you also mentioned, and I cant find it anywhere. That strikes me as old now that you mention it, as all Italian arms destined for the commercial market must be proof tested, and usually they're not shy about making the marks where they're easily visible. Typically, they're around the trigger guard as is the case with every Italian made Beretta I've owned. The only way they may have been able to skirt the proofing requirement may have been to ship the guns as parts, and EAA assembled them here in the US.

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[Mainegrw]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice... I bought my Witness in the spring of '92.  GREAT shooter, and you could ALWAYS get 18 rounds, in the factory 15 round mags!   

I think you'll enjoy it for some time to come.  If the sights are "on," it's VERY accurate.

Thanks! The sights appear to be pretty spot on, the POI feels a little low, but again, i was shooting with a very sore hand yesterday, so it could have been me. We'll see what happens this coming weekend when I get to the range again.

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[Gunnerdad80]

Unless I'm mistaken, yours looks a long slide like my "The Ultra"-"I.P.S.C. Approved". I haven't seen any long slide 9mm models that weren't competition guns but I'm no expert. Nice gun though, fun to shoot.

[Rcher]

Update:

I got out to the range this morning, and I was not disappointed. I picked up a Magnum Research Baby Eagle mag at the LGS for it on the way, this choice was because it was half the price of a CZ mag.

ACT-MAG for CZ-75B is currently on sale for $16.54. With flat rate shipping you can get a lot, saving some money 

https://www.classicfirearms.com/rocki-45204-act-mag-cz75-9mm-17r/

These mags are as good as Mec-Gar mags and I never had any problems using with Sarsilmaz Mega and Cm9 Gen2. Should be fine for the close relative - small frame Tanfoglio.

[Gunnerdad80]

Well I was way off. Tanfoglio made a lot of those long slide all steel pistols. There are several for sale on Gunbroker.

[Mainegrw]

Well I was way off. Tanfoglio made a lot of those long slide all steel pistols. There are several for sale on Gunbroker.

I've been playing this game since Saturday, funny enough... Tanfoglio did in fact make a lot of guns with a similar design in the late 80s and early 90s. I've seen the TZ-75, the TA90, the T95 (TA95?), all all made by Tanfoglio and pretty close in design to the Witness, as well as the Springfield Armory P9, also made from imported Tanfoglio parts. There's also the ITM AT84S and the Sphinx AT 2000, also of a similar design, and also initially finished and assembled from Tanfoglio parts. These all look to be just about the same in design, with minor variation from model to model. Some have slide-mounted safeties a la Walther, while my Witness and others have a CZ 75B style frame safety. They also seem to vary in slide cuts and serrations too. Beyond that, I'm not really sure where the differences go, odds are not too far.

That Ultra IPSC Approved is a neat piece! I've never seen one of those before. If my understanding is correct, it's a derivative of the TA90, yes?

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[Gunnerdad80]

Well I was way off. Tanfoglio made a lot of those long slide all steel pistols. There are several for sale on Gunbroker.

I've been playing this game since Saturday, funny enough... Tanfoglio did in fact make a lot of guns with a similar design in the late 80s and early 90s. I've seen the TZ-75, the TA90, the T95 (TA95?), all all made by Tanfoglio and pretty close in design to the Witness, as well as the Springfield Armory P9, also made from imported Tanfoglio parts. There's also the ITM AT84S and the Sphinx AT 2000, also of a similar design, and also initially finished and assembled from Tanfoglio parts. These all look to be just about the same in design, with minor variation from model to model. Some have slide-mounted safeties a la Walther, while my Witness and others have a CZ 75B style frame safety. They also seem to vary in slide cuts and serrations too. Beyond that, I'm not really sure where the differences go, odds are not too far.

That Ultra IPSC Approved is a neat piece! I've never seen one of those before. If my understanding is correct, it's a derivative of the TA90, yes?

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Technically it’s a TZ75 because of the frame mounted safety. I believe Excam imported the TA90 with mostly slide safety and FIE imported the TZ75 with mostly frame safety. I also have one of the ITM AT84S pistols in the box unfired. Fun fact: that “The Ultra” pistol was imported into the US by FIE but the one I have has no import marks on it. I’m deep in love with Tanfoglio pistols but there are sooo many variations that it is hard to keep them straight. jwc007 is a wealth of knowledge in this area.

[jwc007]

Congratulations on your new-to-you EAA Witness and may it serve you well! 

Your Pistol is a mid term-production of the series 88 Tanfoglio Pistols and these were very well made Pistols.  As you have already determined, the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines are EXACTLY the same Magazine as the Small Frame 9mm Witness Magazines.  In the past, when I have ordered Mec-Gar Small Frame Witness Magazines, the packaging often says Baby Eagle/Witness.

Cz75B Magazines can also work, but for the Limited Capacity Magazines you are required to use, I recommend you stick with the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines.

Also, I recommend that you replace your Firing Pin with a new version, if it has not already been done.

I have a slightly earlier Full Size and Compact Series 88 TA90 Pistols that have been, and are, exceptionally accurate.

 

Technically it’s a TZ75 because of the frame mounted safety. I believe Excam imported the TA90 with mostly slide safety and FIE imported the TZ75 with mostly frame safety. I also have one of the ITM AT84S pistols in the box unfired. Fun fact: that “The Ultra” pistol was imported into the US by FIE but the one I have has no import marks on it. I’m deep in love with Tanfoglio pistols but there are sooo many variations that it is hard to keep them straight. jwc007 is a wealth of knowledge in this area.

In general, you are quite correct!     However, just to make life even more interesting,    towards the end of Excam's existence and it's merger with FIE, which would later become EAA, there were about 400 Tanfoglio Pistols marked TA90 imported that had the Frame Mounted Safety.  They are marginally collectible and typically rare.

[Mainegrw]

Congratulations on your new-to-you EAA Witness and may it serve you well! 

Your Pistol is a mid term-production of the series 88 Tanfoglio Pistols and these were very well made Pistols.  As you have already determined, the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines are EXACTLY the same Magazine as the Small Frame 9mm Witness Magazines.  In the past, when I have ordered Mec-Gar Small Frame Witness Magazines, the packaging often says Baby Eagle/Witness.

Cz75B Magazines can also work, but for the Limited Capacity Magazines you are required to use, I recommend you stick with the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines.

Also, I recommend that you replace your Firing Pin with a new version, if it has not already been done.

I have a slightly earlier Full Size and Compact Series 88 TA90 Pistols that have been, and are, exceptionally accurate.

 

Technically it’s a TZ75 because of the frame mounted safety. I believe Excam imported the TA90 with mostly slide safety and FIE imported the TZ75 with mostly frame safety. I also have one of the ITM AT84S pistols in the box unfired. Fun fact: that “The Ultra” pistol was imported into the US by FIE but the one I have has no import marks on it. I’m deep in love with Tanfoglio pistols but there are sooo many variations that it is hard to keep them straight. jwc007 is a wealth of knowledge in this area.

In general, you are quite correct!     However, just to make life even more interesting,    towards the end of Excam's existence and it's merger with FIE, which would later become EAA, there were about 400 Tanfoglio Pistols marked TA90 imported that had the Frame Mounted Safety.  They are marginally collectible and typically rare.

Thanks! The Baby Eagle Mags are a pretty good fit though the badeplates dont perfectly line up. They are close enough though.

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[Gunnerdad80]

Congratulations on your new-to-you EAA Witness and may it serve you well! 

Your Pistol is a mid term-production of the series 88 Tanfoglio Pistols and these were very well made Pistols.  As you have already determined, the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines are EXACTLY the same Magazine as the Small Frame 9mm Witness Magazines.  In the past, when I have ordered Mec-Gar Small Frame Witness Magazines, the packaging often says Baby Eagle/Witness.

Cz75B Magazines can also work, but for the Limited Capacity Magazines you are required to use, I recommend you stick with the Magnum Research Baby Eagle Magazines.

Also, I recommend that you replace your Firing Pin with a new version, if it has not already been done.

I have a slightly earlier Full Size and Compact Series 88 TA90 Pistols that have been, and are, exceptionally accurate.

 

Technically it’s a TZ75 because of the frame mounted safety. I believe Excam imported the TA90 with mostly slide safety and FIE imported the TZ75 with mostly frame safety. I also have one of the ITM AT84S pistols in the box unfired. Fun fact: that “The Ultra” pistol was imported into the US by FIE but the one I have has no import marks on it. I’m deep in love with Tanfoglio pistols but there are sooo many variations that it is hard to keep them straight. jwc007 is a wealth of knowledge in this area.

In general, you are quite correct!     However, just to make life even more interesting,    towards the end of Excam's existence and it's merger with FIE, which would later become EAA, there were about 400 Tanfoglio Pistols marked TA90 imported that had the Frame Mounted Safety.  They are marginally collectible and typically rare.

I actually own a hard chrome TZ 75 in the original case that has a thumb safety but has EXCAM stamped on the slide.

[jwc007]

In general, you are quite correct!     However, just to make life even more interesting,    towards the end of Excam's existence and it's merger with FIE, which would later become EAA, there were about 400 Tanfoglio Pistols marked TA90 imported that had the Frame Mounted Safety.  They are marginally collectible and typically rare.

I actually own a hard chrome TZ 75 in the original case that has a thumb safety but has EXCAM stamped on the slide.

Interesting!  Sounds like some one at Tanfoglio got their orders crossed or maybe there was some confusion on ordering, during the FIE/Excam merger.
I wonder how many of those are around, but orders were in lots of 200 Pistols, so there's at least that many.