Dillon Press and Powder Measure Tweaks

[rckendall]

Thanks Wobbly, coming from you that's a real compliment. 

I'm still honing my skills with reloading 9mm on the Dillon. Each batch gets a little better and I feel good about that. Progress.

Richard


[Mods split this topic off int a new thread]

[Wobbly]

I'm still honing my skills with reloading 9mm on the Dillon. Each batch gets a little better and I feel good about that. Progress.

Some secrets...
- Use ultra fine adjustments
- Place an o-ring under the lock nut on the Seating Die for on-the-fly OAL tweaks
- Try the Dillon case lube. Knock all your cases over and spray once from 3ft.
- Modify the press for lubrication with grease, especially the ram
- Forget about the trash and focus on the product. Install a spent primer catcher.
- Fit one of those large, plastic powder bar adjust knobs from Ebay

 

[rckendall]

Thanks Wobbly.

My status/observations at this point

I'm ok with seating adjustments, it is powder adjustments that frustrate me. I even bought a second powder measure so I could have one set up for each powder I want to use.

Seating bullet straight in the case is not as good as it could be and I think I need to modify the seating stem for some bullets. I did obtain an additional one from Dillon but haven't worked on it yet. Still a bit chilly in the garage/shop these days. Not sure if case flair has much effect?

I used Hornady One Shot a couple times now and like it better than Dillon, which I had always used before, even rifle cases. The Dillon product always leaves a film which I don't like.

I have a small blue plastic extension for the primer catcher that I got from EBay. It usually works!

I have everything grounded now so static charging isn't a problem.

Thanks for your help as always.

Richard

[Wobbly]

My status/observations at this point...

1. I'm ok with seating adjustments, it is powder adjustments that frustrate me. I even bought a second powder measure so I could have one set up for each powder I want to use.

2. Seating bullet straight in the case is not as good as it could be and I think I need to modify the seating stem for some bullets. I did obtain an additional one from Dillon but haven't worked on it yet. Still a bit chilly in the garage/shop these days. Not sure if case flair has much effect?

3. I used Hornady One Shot a couple times now and like it better than Dillon, which I had always used before, even rifle cases. The Dillon product always leaves a film which I don't like.

4. I have a small blue plastic extension for the primer catcher that I got from EBay. It usually works!

5. I have everything grounded now so static charging isn't a problem.

So even though the powder measures are basically the same unit for all Dillon presses, let's start with the obvious... which press are we talking about ?

1. You mean you permanently set up one with the small powder bar and the other with the large ? That's what I've done. This only means you'll need 2 of the big adjustment knobs, and lubricate 2 PMs with graphite.

2. Exactly which bullet are you having trouble with ? Dillon doesn't supply a great seating anvil for conical bullets, such as PD JHP and Hornady XTP. That's why I make my own.



3. That film is the lubricant, which is critical in cutting OAL variation. One Shot will do the same thing... the point is you're using a lubricant, which is good news. The secret to the sprays is: 1) that they sit for at least 24 hours and cure, and 2) not to spray inside the cases.

4. You must have a 550. You got to lift the catch funnel as far up so that it ends up being very close to the point of release. There are tricks for the release flap too.

5. Loading in an area that's not temperature controlled is going to lead to powder problems because when the temperature is not controlled, then the humidity is not controlled either. When the humidity is high you get 'clumping'. When the humidity is low you get static and thus 'cling'. Not good.


Gimme some more details. 

[rckendall]

Ok, you asked for details! A little out of order but pretty exact I believe.

Using a 550C in a room that is environmentally stable. Primer catch equipment is only a minor issue at this point. There's bigger fish to fry.

The directions for the Hornady One Shot specifically say to spray with mouths up from 4 directions to get lube inside. Using it in this manner has made the operation very consistant and I am pleased with it.

Now for the complicated stuff. I got started loading for my SP-01 using 124 gn Zero JHP and Titegroup. What I found as I started was that the length of the chambers on my SP-01 and my P-01 were about .015 difference, with the SP-01 being longer. So I progressed with focus on the SP-01. Then i was steered towards X-Treme 135 gn RNFP @ .356 diameter for the P-01. By then I realized that Titegroup was a very fast powder and my previous experience loading for 45 ACP was that I liked slower powders better, so I bought some HP-38 for the 135s. That is where the two powder usage started.

It gets deeper! I then bought a Scorpion and found that it shoots gentler with 147 gn bullets. So of course I would like to load for that too. Does that mean another powder? It seems that CFE Pistol would be good for that bullet if we follow the heavier bullet/slower powder rule of thumb.

Side notes: I plan to switch to PD 124 JHP when I run out of the Zero bullets. I would like to wind up using two powders only, but which two I don't know. And, I wonder if I can use the same OAL in my pistols. I realize that the Scorpion will be different and stand alone probably.

Both powder measures work very smoothly with just the standard C type return springs. I doubted the system when I first started because I had used a 550B before. But, as they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

My plan for the seating stem was to just drill the center out which would allow the stem to touch to bullet closer to the ogive instead on the nose. I have a mini lathe with which I could do this, but my garage is still in a state of disarray from moving and it is still chilly enough that I keep putting it off.

I appreciate your comments. Thanks
Richard

[joedirt199]

Here are some tweaks you can do to the powder measure to help with consistancy
http://uniquetek.com/free_tips_files
One specifically for the powder measure.

[Wobbly]

Now for the complicated stuff. I got started loading for my SP-01 using 124 gn Zero JHP and Titegroup. What I found as I started was that the length of the chambers on my SP-01 and my P-01 were about .015 difference, with the SP-01 being longer. So I progressed with focus on the SP-01. Then i was steered towards X-Treme 135 gn RNFP @ .356 diameter for the P-01. By then I realized that Titegroup was a very fast powder and my previous experience loading for 45 ACP was that I liked slower powders better, so I bought some HP-38 for the 135s. That is where the two powder usage started.

The HP-38 (aka W231) should do great for the 124gr and 135gr. I would load for the shorter chamber in the P01 just to be safe. The Zero works great with the existing Dillon RN seating stem. You'll end up making or modifying a stem for the PD JHP.

It gets deeper! I then bought a Scorpion and found that it shoots gentler with 147 gn bullets. So of course I would like to load for that too. Does that mean another powder? It seems that CFE Pistol would be good for that bullet if we follow the heavier bullet/slower powder rule of thumb.

You could use HP-38 with 147gr, but the load range becomes very, very narrow. And undocumented. So a slower powder is probably called for, as you supposed. BE-86 would be my preference, as being much more flexible and useful. Really good for SD rounds if you want that for the P01.

Side notes: I plan to switch to PD 124 JHP when I run out of the Zero bullets. I would like to wind up using two powders only, but which two I don't know. And, I wonder if I can use the same OAL in my pistols. I realize that the Scorpion will be different and stand alone probably.

Just load for the P01 and the SP01 will be fine. I can't talk to the Scorpion.

Both powder measures work very smoothly with just the standard C type return springs. I doubted the system when I first started because I had used a 550B before. But, as they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Before you hinted you weren't happy, now you hint you are. OK.

My plan for the seating stem was to just drill the center out which would allow the stem to touch to bullet closer to the ogive instead on the nose. I have a mini lathe with which I could do this, but my garage is still in a state of disarray from moving and it is still chilly enough that I keep putting it off.

You mean the seating stem for the PD ? Just run a tool in with the compound rest to cut a 30° (included angle) hole, with an opening of about 0.300" and the PD will be happy.

 

[Wobbly]

Here are some tweaks you can do to the powder measure to help with consistancy
http://uniquetek.com/free_tips_files
One specifically for the powder measure.

The one article I saw was about keeping a consistent powder level, the need for which IMHO is nearly eliminated by the Dillon's internal baffle. Yes, best practice is still to start with at least 1/3 full, but that mainly is to remove the distraction of having to check the hopper so the reloader can stay focused on the contents of the case before bullet placement.

 

[rckendall]

Thanks again for the help you guys. Let me elaborate on my past a bit to help understand why I choose my paths forward.

In the nineties I shot USPSA with a 1911 in 45 ACP and loaded lots of ammo on a Dillon 550B. That was what I started with and was happy with it as it met my needs perfectly. I was away from shooting for several years with life getting in the way. Then a few years ago I started shooting F-Class competition out to 1000 yards. This required a much higher level of ammunition loading and it took me quite a while to get up to speed. In the end I had stepped up to the level required and annealed cases each time, used a $500 laboratory grade scale to measure the charge weights, and seated the bullets using an in-line seating die with a micrometer top and an arbor press.

So now that I am back to pistols and a Dillon press, I am adjusting to the different requirement and tools being used. It is my belief that measuring powder by volume will never match in consistency when weighing the charges. I am now getting in the neighborhood of 3.9-4.0 gn accuracy (as an example) now, and I accept that. What frustrates me is trying to adjust to a different setting and having to make  drop after drop just to get things to settle in, then measuring several charges, make another adjustment and start the process over and over again, to find the sweet spot that I am looking for. That is why I now have two powder measures, so I don't have to adjust!!!

I like the idea of using HP-38 for both 124 and 135 bullets and I may be able to use the same charge weight. That would be ideal. I will look into that for sure.

I loaded the 135s for the P-01 and did shoot some in the SP-01 once and found that they worked well, so I will pursue that also.

I am currently happy with the accuracy that I am getting from my powder measures, I just do't like adjusting them.

The reason I bring up the seating stem is that rounds that don't pass the case gauge test usually show a slight bulge in the case, as if they are not straight. They do pass the plunk test but I can see a difference. It may just be the case wall thickness is very inconsistent. I also wondered if the .356 diameter of the plated bullets was a stretch (pun intended).

Thanks again,
Richard

[joedirt199]

Here are some tweaks you can do to the powder measure to help with consistancy
http://uniquetek.com/free_tips_files
One specifically for the powder measure.

The one article I saw was about keeping a consistent powder level, the need for which IMHO is nearly eliminated by the Dillon's internal baffle. Yes, best practice is still to start with at least 1/3 full, but that mainly is to remove the distraction of having to check the hopper so the reloader can stay focused on the contents of the case before bullet placement.

 

There is another article about cleaning up all the surfaces of the moving parts on the powder bar. I hit mine with a fine diamond stone, polished out all the roughness on the inside of the powder hopper, removed the top spring connection of the powder bar safety to eliminate the "clunk" on the down stroke, put elastic hair ties to close the powder bar smoothly on down stroke, mounted my press to the concrete wall to take out as much vibration as possible while working the press, lube the pistol brass to smooth up operation. I would say these have given me very consistant results to the tune of .1 grain variation or less.

[newageroman]

Just getting around to reading up on this. Dillon stuff always gets read by me at least.

If you like long range accuracy, you may be interested in some upgrades to the 550. Look up Prometheus Dillon 550. If the article doesn't turn up, let me know, I got printouts, so I didn't lose the link. It talks about how a very qualified LR shooter used the 550 for match accuracy mass ammo. I forget all the details, but there's stuff in there like, "hone the shellplates perfectly flat", reduce the thickness of them and such. One thing I may soon incorporate is the use of the M die for 6.5cm.

He also talks about how he processes brass after matches and etc.. annealing.. all there... amazing info.. Again, geared to the high precision competitor.

Glad to have you along! I'd love to pick your brain about some things... annealing would be the first topic. I'll save that for another thread.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fp72h0e4awobo65/6_19_Dillon-Prometheus-Article_v1.2.pdf?dl=0

[You do not need to "sign up" to save the article to your computer.]

[rckendall]

Newageroman,
Thanks for the link to that article. I found it very interesting and understood why, for each modification that was done. For me, once I saw the need for each step I embraced it and moved forward, all within reason, money and effort. In the end I am very happy with the results I was getting with all my cartridges. I (the shooter) was the weak link in my competition.

Now that I have around 1200 rounds through my Dillon, a new 550C, I am getting satisfactory results. I dislike adjusting the powder measure as it takes so many drops to get things to settle in, and then adjust again etc, etc. I now have a second powder measure so that I can use two different powders or charge weights without adjusting!!!

I also ordered a second seating die with the same idea in mind. I accept the accuracy of the charge weights as a result of metering by volume, which is not the same as metering by weight, but it is close enough for the short range shooting we do with pistols.

One goal many of us had in long range shooting load development, was to use a load that had some margin. The load I had for my 223 would stand a charge weight of 0.1 grain either way and still shoot the same POA. I would like to think that a similar situation could be had with our pistol cartridges.

Richard

[Wobbly]

So now that I am back to pistols and a Dillon press, I am adjusting to the different requirement and tools being used. It is my belief that measuring powder by volume will never match in consistency when weighing the charges. I am now getting in the neighborhood of 3.9-4.0gn accuracy (as an example) now, and I accept that. What frustrates me is trying to adjust to a different setting and having to make  drop after drop just to get things to settle in, then measuring several charges, make another adjustment and start the process over and over again, to find the sweet spot that I am looking for. That is why I now have two powder measures, so I don't have to adjust!!!

Hate to say this, but this could use some more explanation.
• While agreed that volumetric powder measures will never have zero variation, if the Dillon is adjusted correctly you can be in the range where the measurable variations won't make any difference in pistol bullet placement... unless you're going to the Olympics.

• Why does adjustment frustrate you ? Is it making the physical adjustment, or is it the mechanics or what ? Please describe.

• What do you mean by "settle in" ? Without a consistent density of the powder in the hopper you will never have consistent weights from a volumetric measure. That may be your whole problem, right there.

 

[rckendall]

I've done a little more research on Dillon machines and came across this one today. I think it matches my feelings pretty closely.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/why-dillon/

He says something to the effect of "doesn't want to touch it (the powder measure) ever again (after getting it adjusted)". Without explaining his process, he mentions a hundred drops to get the correct setting.

As mentioned before, I now have over 1200 rounds loaded on the machine and I am satisfied with what it delivers. I will continue to work on set-ups for different bullet/powder combinations that suit my needs. I have the second powder measure now that changes out easily and a second seating die on the way also. Using a locking jamb nut I can change dies easily enough also, without losing adjustment.

As it is said, Your results may vary!

Thanks for everyone's input,
Richard

[Wobbly]

I've done a little more research on Dillon machines and came across this one today. I think it matches my feelings pretty closely.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/why-dillon/

He says something to the effect of "doesn't want to touch it (the powder measure) ever again (after getting it adjusted)". Without explaining his process, he mentions a hundred drops to get the correct setting.

IMHO, that's a bunch of BS. True you should dump the first 10 powder drops right back into the hopper. Then you should average to next 10. So if you're looking for 4.0gr, as you previously mentioned, then 10 drops should be very, very close to 40.0gr. The Dillon PM settles down very fast. Much faster than other measures. If you're not right on the money on the 20th drop then something is wrong with your Dillon PM.