Author Topic: New to reloading questions  (Read 5708 times)

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Offline black43

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New to reloading questions
« on: March 18, 2020, 05:07:34 PM »
I've been reading a lot of information on here and I bought the Lee, Lyman and 9mm caliber specific book for information and load data. I also used the Hodgdon website to look up load data. (Hodgdon 2020 update manual on the way). At first I thought there were endless possibilities of bullets, powder, primer and it was overwhelming. I narrowed it down to 124 grain bullets and purchased 4, 1 lb powder containers to try out: HP-38, Titegroup, CFE pistol and Unique. I also order Berry 124 grain copper plated RN, PD 124 grain FMJ RN, PD 124 grain JHP, RMR 124 grain FMJ RN, and RMR 124 grain JHP. I did notice the RMR JHP seemed noticeably "shorter" than the PD JHPs.

I will be loading primarily for my P-01, but would also like to use them in my 75b. I'm not looking necessarily for the most accurate bullet, obviously I want accuracy but just starting out I want a soft shooting plinking round.

1. I read in the Lee manual that it's okay to use, for example 125 Grain RN data, for a 124 grain RN bullet. I think the theory is that as long as the OAL is long enough, the extra space between the powder and the smaller bullet would not increase pressure, it would actually decrease pressure. Is that a safe assumption?

2. When starting out, would you recommend narrowing it down by powder or bullet? I plan to use the Berry's bullets first because I found good load data in the Lee manual and cross-referenced it to my other sources. I would start with HP-38 for example, and then work up a load. I would find what I like best, then move onto another powder. Once i have my favorite load for each powder and Berry bullet, i would make 10 of each and then compare. That way I would have my favorite powder and Berry bullet combination. Repeat for the other bullets/powders. Then do a comparison between all of my 'favorites.' Seems like I have a lot of combination/testing to do.

3. Working up a load - I don't plan on going anywhere near the max because I just want to make a good plinking round. My plan is to start at min, go up about halfway to max, check for pressure and function in my gun and then stop there if everything looks good. Is that a good approach?

4. I have seen specific 124 Grain JHP loads that I will use for the PD bullets. But, are all 'jacketed' bullets created equal? If i see a load for 124 grain FMJ, is it safe to assume i can use that load for the 124 grain JHP? I've seen data that lumps FMJ, JHP together for the same grain - the only difference is the OAL is different. From what I saw, it looks like FMJ bullet OAL is .015 longer than JHP. If I just go to the max OAL that my pistol will accept, and its longer than the printed OAL in the load data, I should be good, correct?

5. COAL - Is the best approach to check my gun's OAL and then reload pretty close to the number? Making sure that the min OAL in the books is met of course.

Thanks in advance.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 06:24:53 PM »
Welcome Aboard !

And those are great questions. I'll give you my take on it and others will join in.

A. Tell us about your press. Some processes will be press dependent.

B. I would put the others aside and focus on a single powder for the first several months. This is to let you learn to crawl before you try running. The powder I'd choose Is the HP-38. It's a very mild mannered powder. It meters well, has good case fill, has a wide load range so it's very forgiving, and it's in every load manual in the world. It can also be compressed without issue.

You need to make a note to yourself. HP-38 is also sold under the name Winchester 231. So you may not see HP-38, but you will see 231 and those load data are completely interchangeable.

C. It's nice you got a lot of manuals, but you need to pick one to be your primary reference tool. I would advise you use the Lyman because it has Jacketed and Lead load data, and not every manual does that. The Lyman is wide ranging, indicates the most accurate powder, and we all know the data to be good. So go to this manual first, and when other data doesn't say the same thing (and no 2 manuals agree), follow the Lyman.

D. I'd start your reloading experience using the Berry 124gr RN you got. These are very nice, well-behaved bullets.


Q1. When we buy a new bullet and we go looking for data, above all else we try to match the weight and construction. Weight because that's the mass the burning powder is accelerating. Construction because the material that touches the barrel determines the friction. So we are either looking for Jacketed or Lead load data.

Now, Plated bullets are in a world all their own, and are highly dependent upon the plating thickness. Thin plating acts like Lead; while thick plating acts like Jacketed. So you must consult the maker and see what they advise. Berry advises you to use Jacketed data, or at least used to. This because Berry has some of the thickest plating.

So the load data really doesn't have much to do with bullet shape, although if we can match it, it's a good thing. But it's definitely in a distant in 3rd place. So we can use the 124gr Jacketed (aka FMJ) data from the Lyman for your Berry bullets.

The Load Data is nothing more than a Lab Report... just like you used to write up in school. The manual writers are going to tell you the amount of powder, the OAL, and the velocity that achieved. Yes, loading longer reduces the chamber pressure.

> The OAL is NOT a recommendation, it's part of their report.
> You are always OK to load longer than the OAL listed in the data, and thus reduce pressure.
> Everything we do in reloading is to control (and reduce) chamber pressure. Everything. Chamber pressure is the Boogie Man hiding in the closet. And he will come out and bite you !!

Q2. Somewhat answered already. I suggest a single powder to start. Tite Group is too finicky and easy to screw up. Unique and CFE are much slower burning and develop a lot more umph, and thus can be uncomfortable to shoot. You will get to them later.

Q3. Nothing good happens at Max Load. We always, always, always begin a new-to-you bullet at the Starting Load. Then we work up in very small increments. And we never use Max Load unless our chrono tells us to.

Q4. We'll talk about the other bullets later. One problem at a time. You need to really focus on this one thing this month. By the end you'll feel like you've been drinking from a fire hose and glad to be dealing with only one !  ;D

Q5. There is both Science and Art to reloading. Science helps you stay away from the Boogie Man. In reloading we assume nothing, we work from known loads and critical measurements to derive new facts. We work our way from fact to fact to keep chamber pressure at bay. We DO NOT guess, we look it up or we measure it ourselves.

And then we write down everything we learn in our personal reloading notebook, because we never, ever trust our memory. You do have a notebook, right ? We can't go any further until you have a notebook.

So, I'm looking in our Primary Reference Source (my Lyman is #49) and I see a 124gr Jacketed load for 231/HP38. The reported OAL is 1.075" and the load is 3.9 to 4.4gr.

We're going to do the CZ Push Test on your barrels with the Berry 124gr RN. That will give us your Max OAL. From the Lyman load data the reported OAL becomes your Min OAL. That is the Science; the Art allows us to use any number between the Max and Min. That's sort of captured in the cartoon...




That's enough for now.   ;)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 04:19:48 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline black43

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 06:40:30 PM »
Classic Lee turret press.

Offline black43

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 07:52:48 PM »
Another question.. How clean does the inside of the brass casing have to be? The outside look shiny and clean but the inside, not so much. I ran it through a dry tumbler - the frankford tumbler.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 08:14:21 PM »
Another question.. How clean does the inside of the brass casing have to be? The outside look shiny and clean but the inside, not so much. I ran it through a dry tumbler - the frankford tumbler.


Cleaning, other than removal of mud and dirt to protect the dies, is completely up to you. So really nothing more than a wipe-down is required. Dry tumbling with corn cob will typically clean the exterior to a nice shine and leave the interior bout 1/2 clean.

Questions:
> Did you put some liquid car wax in with your tumbling media ? I suggest NuFinish in the orange bottle.

> Do you have some 9mm dies yet ? If so you can set those up per the Lee instructions. If not, then I can save you some money.

> Do you have a Lube Pad, Hornady OneShot, or other spray case lube ?

> What type powder scale and powder measure do you have ?

 ;)
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Offline black43

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 08:53:24 PM »
I did already purchase the dies. I have the set of 4 Lee dies, with the FCD. But I also bought the Taper Crimp die because it was only $12 and I have seen conflicting information/opinions on which is better. I thought I could give both a try. I believe I'v read your posts where you say the taper crimp die is better/all you need.

I added the "Brass Polish" that came with the Frankford tumbler set into the media.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/FRANKFORD-ARSENAL-QUICK-N-EZ-CASE-CASE-TUMBLER-KIT/2080782.uts?slotId=5

Per the description, "A tube of Case Sizing Lube" comes with the Classic Turret Press so I'll probably use that. Looks like the kit also includes an auto drum powder measure, and a scale. I bought a separate digital scale and I'll double check my first loads for powder weight.

I think I have everything I need but I'm going through the process of reading, asking questions, getting components, and collecting brass. I'm lucky to have a neighbor that reloads who can help me initially set everything up and get me going on the right path in the next few months.

How about all of this panic buying of ammo! Looks like reloading 9mm is "worth it" in times like these... I've seen bulk 9mm ammo going for $.40! And what else will there be to do if there's some kind of lockdown in response to the virus?

Offline DMY

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2020, 12:39:30 AM »
I've been reloading other calibers for a few decades, but bought my first 9mm and CZ recently. I am also new to this forum and can tell you one thing with confidence - Wobbly is a wealth of good, concise, information.

I agree with everything he said and want to add a couple of comments. In order to get accurate ammo, you should try to be consistent. In an ideal world (which is not always practical), that means same brass from same lot number, same primers seated to a consistent depth, consistent stroke so that the same amount of powder drops, consistent seating depth (Coal), same bullet, and consistent crimp (which is dependent on consistent case length. Again, this is not always practical, but I've experienced better accuracy when I eliminate as many variables as possible.

Second, buy a bullet puller and don't be afraid to use it. Wasting a $0.10 round is better than blowing up a several hundred dollar firearm, or risking injury.

Be safe and enjoy.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 08:12:12 AM »
Good points, DMY !
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2020, 08:53:18 AM »
So in answer to your last message, lets talk about supplies and prep....

> You'll need your reloading notebook. (You do have a notebook, right ?) Here's how mine is setup, but you may like another system. First page is various reloading errata, like: 1 lb equals 7000gr, 1 inch equals 25.400mm, When in doubt call Armoredman, Painter will shoot my chrono, things like that. Then about 3 pages in I setup my first bullet page. Title of the page "Berry 124gr RN". Under that record the diameter, average bullet length, average bullet weight, seating anvil you intend to use with this bulllet, and any other changes needed for your press when you. Maybe even a date.



> You'll need your Berry bullets. You'll need to do the Max OAL test on both your CZs... using the naked barrel. You'll get pretty much the same answer from both guns, but you need to see that so that you'll know that about your guns. That test is in the Directory at the top of this Forum. HERE Just follow those directions.

When you finish, write down the shortest of those 2 readings along with the other bullet data at the top of the Berry 124gr RN page in your notebook. That info is sacred to you and your guns only.

Last thing, we're going to write down the OAL we will always use with these bullets. We got all this Science, now finally comes the Art part. Ready ? Thou art going to use an OAL of 1.130" with these bullets, and nothing else !  ;D It's a nice number that history has shown gives really good results. Easy to measure, easy to achieve, and works really well for this bullet in a wide variety of pistols. Art class is now over.

> Your little tube of lube is going to be used up in no time if you dab it on, so I want you to get a "Lube Pad". These are really cheap and won't break the bank. You're going to place a small dab of lube on the pad, then roll 5 or 6 cleaned cases on the pad. This will make that tube last about 5 years. And the pad will spread the lube over a much greater area.

> Per DMY, you'll also need a kinetic hammer (aka 'unloading hammer', 'bullet puller'). Don't buy a cheap one, get an RCBS or Lyman.

> You got your dies setup in the press ? Any questions ? Use the plain Lee Taper Crimp in the 4th position. (You can setup the FCD later on.) The setup of the TC die requires a dummy round (no primer; no powder), which we will now make. Size a case in the Sizing Die, bell or flare a case under the Powder Die just enough for a 124gr Berry RN to balance on the case mouth, seat the bullet progressively lower in the Seating Die until the setting is close to 1.130". Now we will put that round under the TC Die. This is the hardest adjustment to make because you need to go so slow. With the ram all the way UP, run the TC DOWN until it touches. Then keep cycling the dummy rounds through the TC Die with the op lever. Keep lowering the TC Die in 1/10th turn increments until the measurement on Taper Crimp comes out to 0.377".



All these will need more minor adjustments when production starts, but for now you're good. Read about Taper Crimp HERE.

> Lastly, I want you to start working with your HP38 and the powder measure. You need to get accustomed to operating it, and you need to get used to the powder.

If it's really cold where you are, you may need anti-static clothes dryer sheets. You can wipe your powder measure (PM) down and eliminate most of the static. If your PM is sticky or doesn't move nicely, then you can get graphite powder from the Lock section of your hardware store and squirt some graphite into the hopper. You should also have a Powder Baffle in the bottom of your PM. That will help with consistency. HERE

Put some powder into the PM hopper. First Rule of PM's: Always fill the PM hopper at least 1/2 full. What I want you to do is make 30 powder drops and record the weight of each. (Use the digital scale for this.) Just write down the weight, and dump the powder back into the top of the hopper. What you'll learn is that the first 10 "drops" aren't consistent worth a toot. Thus, the Second Rule of PM's: Never load the first 10 drops !!

You'll also discover that a consistent use of the PM lever gives more consistent weights. So use the "knock-knock" technique. Raise the op lever and tap it twice against the top of the throw. When you lower the op lever, knock it twice against the bottom of the throw. Do the 30 drop test again with this and see if things don't improve.

Lastly, dump all the powder in the PM back into the can. You'll need a small funnel for this job. Third Rule of PMs: Only have one can on your bench top at a time, because you can mix up powders very easily. And it you do, it all gets thrown out !

Now you are learning that the PM should be fastened to it's own mounting board rather than fastened to the press. Because the easiest way to empty a full hopper is to simply turn it up-side-down.




> You simply need to be very familiar with your equipment before we start making any ammo. There's no way better than simply using it and taking measurements. Lots of tweaks. Lots of housekeeping to do. Lots of small bits to go get or order.

* Practice with the powder measure awhile longer and keep learning about it.

* Practice making more dummy rounds, and tweak the Die settings until the average dimension gets much closer. (Here you will learn about tolerances. No manufacturing is "perfect"... especially yours!  ;D  Our object is to keep it as close as possible to our goals. So our "goal" for OAL is 1.130". If you are consistently making dummy rounds 1.128 to 1.134" you're doing absolutely great !)

* Sort through your brass and start a "Scrap Bucket" using the ideas in this thread: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=108246.0


Hope this helps with your "Social Distancing".  ;)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 10:34:03 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Kneab

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2020, 11:52:02 AM »
I load for 223, 9mm and 45Acp on a Lee turret press. I found this on Ultimatereloader.com a few years back for tracking my loads. I use the notes area for writing notes about what size disk I used for the powder drop, how many pcs. I produced and how much powder was used. I'm not sure if it's still available but I suppose you could just print it from here.

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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2020, 02:55:37 PM »
Hey, that's nice !  Looks like you could build it yourself in Excel or other spreadsheet.

We'd also had quite a few members computerize their load info, but some few of them have lost data during computer crashes. The handwritten notebook is of course the lowest tech method just to get someone started. This is like anything else you might be sampling to see if it's a 'fit' for your lifestyle, you start simple and work your way up.

 ;)
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Offline Kneab

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2020, 09:33:19 PM »
Took a few minutes to find it on the ultimatereloader.com site.
Hopefully this link works.

http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/UR-Load-Data-Record-Book-2.0.pdf

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Offline black43

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2020, 03:02:00 PM »

> Your little tube of lube is going to be used up in no time if you dab it on, so I want you to get a "Lube Pad". These are really cheap and won't break the bank. You're going to place a small dab of lube on the pad, then roll 5 or 6 cleaned cases on the pad. This will make that tube last about 5 years. And the pad will spread the lube over a much greater area.

Just wanted to clarify this.. If I'm making say, 200 rounds in a session, I would put lube on maybe 5-10 cases and the purpose of that is to lube the dies?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2020, 03:39:46 PM »
Just wanted to clarify this.. If I'm making say, 200 rounds in a session, I would put lube on maybe 5-10 cases and the purpose of that is to lube the dies?


• For bottleneck rifle, every case needs to be lubed.

• For straight-walled handgun, I roll about 5 or 6 at a time on the pad... And then I'd insert those into the Sizing stream about every 3rd case. Or, it's it's easier, let your Lube Pad get really dried out and roll 100%. The point is, it takes very little to make a huge difference.

• For bottleneck handgun, I treat them more like rifle.
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Offline tdogg

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Re: New to reloading questions
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2020, 04:41:42 PM »
I took the tube of Lee Case lube and cut it with some Iso-Heet fuel treatment (high %IPA) and put it in a old spray bottle.  It will separate, so you have to shake it before use but it works well and the IPA evaporates fast leaving a thin film of lube behind.  It took me years to use that homemade lube up.  I finally did and now use Hornady One Shot for all my pistol reloading.  I use Imperial sizing wax for all bottle neck sizing.

Cheers,
Toby
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