P07/09 Kadet reliability vs 75 Kadet

[Earl Keese]

My 75 Kadet was reliable with quality sv ammo and mechanical accuracy was outstanding as JoeL mentions. The only reason I sold it was the inability to mill for a mrds.

[Walt Sherrill]

I've had a Kadet Kit for years for my CZ 85 Combat, but I've never even seen one for a P07 (which I also own).

One of the earlier replies talked about the P07 version of the Kadet Kit as having a moving slide, and not a fixed barrel.  The older Kadet Kit's slide (really the upper assembly, as there is no moving slide), the sights, and the barrel are a single unit in what looks like a slide\, and the frame is just the handle.   I didn't see anyone correct that statement.

Is the Kadet Kit for the P07 a totally different design than the earlier Kadet Kits?  Those versions have a fixed barrel, and the only part that actually moves is the bolt, which is in the rear of the slide.  That design is innately more accurate that kits that don't have a fixed barrel.

I had a very nice stanless Ruger Mk II Government model with a long slab-sided barrel.  It was nice and accurate, and a beautiful gun too look at, but my Kadet Kit was surprisingly just as accurate as the the longer-barreled Ruger,  and I traded the Ruger for a nice Witness Sport Long Slide in .45.  (That model was a precursor to the top-end Witness match-type guns.)

If the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 is similar in design to the older kit, it has the potential to be vary accurate.  If the design is different, then...

I couldn't find a manual for the P07/'P09 kit on the CZ website.

[timetofly]

Is the Kadet Kit for the P07 a totally different design than the earlier Kadet Kits?  Those versions have a fixed barrel, and the only part that actually moves is the bolt, which is in the rear of the slide.  That design is innately more accurate that kits that don't have a fixed barrel.

I had a very nice stanless Ruger Mk II Government model with a long slab-sided barrel.  It was nice and accurate, and a beautiful gun too look at, but my Kadet Kit was surprisingly just as accurate as the the longer-barreled Ruger,  and I traded the Ruger for a nice Witness Sport Long Slide in .45.  (That model was a precursor to the top-end Witness match-type guns.)

If the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 is similar in design to the older kit, it has the potential to be vary accurate.  If the design is different, then...

I couldn't find a manual for the P07/'P09 kit on the CZ website.

I attached a picture of a dis-assembled P-07 Kadet.  It came with three recoil springs for a little fine tuning for different ammo.

[Joe L]

Walt--it appears from the photos I've seen that the barrel stays put on the frame and the slide and sights cycle.  Your concern is the same as mine--the accuracy is dependent on how loose they have to leave the lock up to get the slide to cycle reliably on the weak .22 ammo.  I love the 75B Kadet design with the cycling bolt and rigid barrel to sight construction. 

I don't think this is possible with a cycling sight .22 design.  This was with a 75B all steel Kadet.



Only perfect timed fire (25 yard standing single hand, 5 shots in 20 seconds, twice) target I've shot.  I've shot 20-30 100 score targets but no 10x except this one.  In practice, of course, never in a match.   

Joe

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm glad I didn't get a Kadet Kit for my P07,  as I think I would have been disappointed with its performance. 

I'm sure the kit for the P07 can be made to perform very well, but it would probably take a gunsmith (or home gunsmith) who understands the P07's lockup design, because... 

• the barrel and slide are never locked together as can be the case with the standard Browning Locked Breech Short Recoil designs,

• and it's barrel is not fixed in it's relationship to the sights, as is common with many fixed barrel .22 handguns.

It probably would take metal being tweaked (added or removed) at the rear of the barrel assembly where it llocks up with the slide (depending on the gun it's being run in).  That may be enough so that the barrel and sights consistently align. It might also need a "tuned" barrel bushing added at the front end.

With the Browning Locked Breech Short Recoil design, barrel movement upwards is very limited until after the bullet has left the barrel -- because the slide has moved a fraction of inch to the rear by the time the bullet has left the barrel, so the barrel and slide (and the sights) have a fixed relationship untll later, when the barrel starts to unlock.   The Browning LBSR design lets the slide move to the rear before the barrel begins to tilt as it unlocks from the slide. 

With the P07 Kadet Kit design, recoil force will push against the frame (and the shooter's hand) and that will begin to lift the barrel as soon as the bullet starts down the barrel.  If the barrel is NOT tightly fit to the slide, there can be barrel movement before the bullet has left the barrel.  If it's same with each shot,  it won't matter.  But will it be consistent?   Properly fit, it might be.

I'm sure this design is much less expensive to build than the older 75B Kadet Kit design, and that may have been part of its design criteria.  It is a much simpler design and theoretically more durable -- but durability hasn't seemed to be an issue with the earlier design.

If they had used this newer design with the 75B, I'd probably still be shooting my  beautiful old MK II Stainless Government Model.

[DanMore]

Question:

What ist the szenario for you using a system like a Kadet Pistol?

- Is it tight groups from 25m, single handed, like at the olympics? Neither the CZ75 Kadet, nor the P07/P09 Kadet would bring groups even close to the match pistols. The only one that would maybe a chance of getting even close would be the CZ75 Sport 3 in .22lr running a 6" syetem.

https://www.frankonia.de/p/pro-tuning/pistole-cz-75-sport-iii/135041?lastSelected=f_s_marke&f_s_kategorie=KK-Sportpistolen&navCategoryId=63349

- Is it to go out to the range and have some fun, maybe some small game hunting szenario?
Specially the P07 Kadet is a nice and compact pistol, that just works and delivers nice groups at shorter distances.

These systems are fun shooting systems, put on defensive pistol frames, so they are sweet for kids to learn dynamic shooting, in example.

I have a bullseye .22 in my gun safe. Adjustable trigger pull, adjustable pre travel, triggerstop, 6" barell.
That is the kind of .22 pistol you get, if you are looking for maximum accuracy.

[Walt Sherrill]

While I don't expect a Kadet Kit to outperform a dedicated .22 target pistol, I found my older version of the Kadet Kit to be a very good performer, and just about all with whom I've talked with about their Kadet Kits said the same.

What I've seen from the responses here suggest that the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 do not come close to performing as well as the original kit design.

That design had a fixed barrel and  sights and a slide that didn't slide -- the top, except for the bolt, was a fixed, single assembly. Lockup of barrel and sights was never an issue.

The newer design has a semi-fixed barrel that tilts and and a slide and sights that may not always return to exactly the same position without gunsmith enhancement. 

That's two different design approaches, and based on the sample targets shown in this message chain and comments here, that two quite different types of accuracy

None of this means that the P07/P09 Kadet Kit can't be modified to perform very well -- it probably can.  But it may not perform the same with each gun upon which it is mounted.
 
The new design may satisfy many shooters, but none of the newer Kadet Kits seem to perform as well as the older deign.  (The photos of targets and comments here seem to confirm that assessment.)    My older Kadet Kit is an exceptional performer. 

I won't buy a Kadet Kit for my P07, as all it would is frustrate me.  And I really like my P07, which shoots just about as well as my Sphinx SDP, and does it for roughly 1/e the purchase price. 

[Bellefield]

It is a little chilly here but I managed to get out to the range for a little comparison of the P-09 and P-07 Kadets VS the Kadet 2.  I threw in a SP-01 and Shadow 2 Kadets for good measure.

Disclaimer, I don't shoot light pistols very well.  I need to work on this more in the future. 

The pistols that were used and the Kadet version along with the weight without magazines.

1) CZ 75 SA frame with Kadet 2             2 lbs 4 1/8 oz
2) CZ P-07 with P-07 Kadet                   1 lb 2 3/8 oz
3) CZ P-09 with P-09 Kadet                   1 lb 4 1/4 oz
4) CZ SP-01 Shadow with SP-01 Kadet   1 lb 15 3/8 oz
5) CZ Shadow 2 with Shadow 2 Kadet    2 lbs 3 1/2 oz

The ammunition used was Federal "Auto Match" 40 grain Solid.  The distance was 10 yards, temp was 45 DegF.  The steel framed pistols all have had a little trigger love but the P-09 and P-07 are stock triggers. 

Hopefully your mileage is better than mine.

wow, that is some nice grouping with the conversion kits.

I'm looking for a CZ 22 for range shooting, we only have 25m and 50m ranges in our club.  I can probably pick up a P07 or P09 as a full 22 pistol (i.e. not a kit), would you recommend them as a range pistol for learning on with 22 (rather than 9mm)?

[Bellefield]

I should point out that while I would love to be able to hit the bullseye with every .22, my main aim is to eventually be accurate with a 9mm over 25m, at the moment I'm all over the place and at 25m, I shoot 50 rounds a visit, and I'd say about 75% of my shots are within a 12" group.  I'd like to get that down to 90% within a 6 inch grouping before moving to 9mm.

A lot of the club's members can do way better than this, so I've got a lot of practice to do before I get to where I want to be.

Once I get there on a 22 CZ, I'll sell it and move to a 9mm CZ

[DenStinett]

I'd say; buy the whole 9mm Pistol, with its matching KADET Kit
Practice with the KADET Kit until you've got that where you want it
Then switch to the 9mm Upper and go from there
This way you haven't spent time and Ammo and then have to re-learn a brand new Trigger feel / break / reset etc
Yes, the recoil will be different, but the Trigger will not be a part of you new learning curve

My B-SA and its mated KADET Kit


Hard to tell them apart at first glance