P-09 barrel, clean enough?

[Joe L]

Wobbly--YEP!  Art project! 

I could fill up those tiny grooves in 20 rounds and then no spin, no hit nothing.  The last thing anyone will find here is any kind of art project.  Maybe a few bird photos. 

Joe

[eastman]

If you want to look at some lands/grooves that your mind knows just aren't right but you still have a bit of trouble figuring out why - take a look down the barrel of an M1917 (US .30-06 used in WW1).  It is two kinds of "different.  #1 is it has 5 lands and grooves.  Not the usual 4 or 6.  #2 is the rifling is a left hand twist, not the usual right hand twist we are used to seeing.

The cool thing is they are pretty darned accurate.  I have no idea why they went that direction with them vs what is "normal" here in the US.  Made by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a Remington owned company).

The P-17 followed the barrel design of the British P-14 and used 5-groove Enfield rifling. P-17 rifles refurbished for use in WWII often had 4-groove RHT replacement barrels.

[Tok36]

If you want to look at some lands/grooves that your mind knows just aren't right but you still have a bit of trouble figuring out why - take a look down the barrel of an M1917 (US .30-06 used in WW1).  It is two kinds of "different.  #1 is it has 5 lands and grooves.  Not the usual 4 or 6.  #2 is the rifling is a left hand twist, not the usual right hand twist we are used to seeing.

The cool thing is they are pretty darned accurate.  I have no idea why they went that direction with them vs what is "normal" here in the US.  Made by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a Remington owned company).

The P-17 followed the barrel design of the British P-14 and used 5-groove Enfield rifling. P-17 rifles refurbished for use in WWII often had 4-groove RHT replacement barrels.

So you are saying that the weird rifling is the fault of the British!  I have always liked the look of the P-14, something about the rear sight, the bolt handle and the semi pistol grip just dose it for me.

[Joe L]

Well, my new cheap Teslong borescope arrived a day early, so I tested it out on this P-09 barrel.  The first clip shows how good I could get the bore with some solvent/brushes/patches, kinda the normal way I have cleaned the barrel in the past.  The borescope showed a lot of lead still in the bore, so I decided to try some Hoppe's#9 and brush with ChoreBoy wrapped around it, followed by some 9.3mm VFG pellets with Kroil and JB bore paste.  I only used two pellets, maybe 10 passes through the bore for each pellet.  Then I solvent cleaned, oiled, patched, and took the second clip in the following video.  I'm stopping here, putting the gun back together and plan on shooting it soon.  Next is the Kadet followed by the P-10S followup check, just to see what kind of lead buildup there is in it.  Let me know what you think. 

https://youtu.be/9iKyjZ8vKJw

Joe

[Vinny]

Joe, That bore-scope really tells the story.  Good work!

Do you use lead cast bullets or copper jacketed?
Wondering why there's lead buildup along the lands vs copper.  -Vinny

[jurek]

Good job Joe !

[CCWLearner]

Nice job.  The VFG pellets really do better at getting in the grooves than a usual patch cloth on a jag.  I haven't polished my barrels with JB paste yet but I use them as part of my normal cleaning routine, in addition to cotton patch cloths.  I like how you can feel and hear them squeaking against the inside of the barrel when they're soaked with Kroil and Hoppes #9... squeaky clean!

[Joe L]

Reply to Vinny...

All box ammo, either the Atlanta Arms 115 JHP or Remington UMC 115 FMJ.  I assumed the metal in the video was lead, since it appears silver in color in both these videos and in the previous still photos.  I may have put a few rounds of a friend's lead reloads through it at one time.  If that is the case, the lead has been there a while. 

I am going to go back to the low round count barrels next and check those.  Probably the P-10F today, which is about as good a shooter as this P-09 barrel, I'm just not as consistent with the trigger.
Yet.  I don't remember shooting any non-jacketed bullets in any of the P-10 pistols.

Joe

[Joe L]

Here is the video I made this morning of the P-10F barrel.  Not quite sure what to think of this one.  The grooves look rough, I think with copper smeared in the chatter marks.  But no erosion/corrosion, compared to the P-09 barrel.  The little Teslong borescope works almost too well.  I can see more than I really want to deal with! I'm open for comments/suggestions.  I'll probably just go shoot it the way it is here, at most I'll make one more pass on it with the VFG pellets and a little bore paste. 

https://youtu.be/dQkaS4rKr_Y

I'm pretty sure this one hasn't had any non-jacketed ammo through it. 

Joe

[Vinny]

Joe, That borescope image is fantastic.
I've always wondered why I can't seem to get the grooves of my barrels completely clean as they always appear to be rough and dirty. I've suspected that much of the roughness may be from the manufacturing process where they maybe push through a cutter like a broach that leaves the roughness and only the lands get micro polished. Theoretically, as long as the edges of the lands are crisp and work to spin the bullet, the bullet should never come in contact with the bottom of the grooves. Unless we allow the grooves to fill with crud (which yours are clearly NOT) I suspect we should be OK.

However, if the lands are damaged, galled, or filled with lead or copper; that could certainly affect the trajectory. But I suppose as long as it remains consistent the accuracy might not be affected??

Dunno, but your posts have certainly been enlightening. Thanks Joe.
Now for the true test..........Do they shoot better!??

[M1A4ME]

I definitely don't want to use your borescope on my P07 or P09.  I've always been impressed with how smooth/shiny those barrels look to me.

While I might not be happy with the surface of the grooves I can't see them affecting accuracy unless there is enough build up to contact the bullet jacket??  But those chipped corners on the lands would seem to be a magnet for cutting little chunks of bullet jacket off the bullet and depositing them somewhere else in the barrel.  And making the use of lead bullets, maybe even coated lead bullets a rough clean up exercise.

[Joe L]

Here is the P-10C barrel, before any deep cleaning attempt.  This was taken after my usual cleaning--some solvent, then brush, then patches until clean, then a very light oil patch.  Except I skipped the oil patch for the video.  This one is easy to see the copper tracks in the grooves.  I'm thinking the other gunk is just carbon and not lead.  If so, then it should clean up pretty easily with Hoppe's #9, some brushing, then some VFG pellets and some paste.  This one also doesn't show any erosion/corrosion like the much older and much abused P-09 barrel.  Perhaps the barrel corrodes slowly under the carbon buildup if the carbon isn't removed after shooting?  If so, then I'm a barrel abuser. 

https://youtu.be/o0zH_5TWNu8

I'll work on it some this afternoon and then see how much of this I can actually remove--I'm especially interested in successfully getting what I hope is just carbon out.  Not too worried about the copper.  Its thin, and fills in the rough spots.  I think.  Any real gunsmiths out there? 

I wouldn't subject you guys to all this if there was anything else pressing right now. 

Joe

[Tok36]

Joe L, abuser of barrels. They say that admitting it is the first step. 

[Joe L]

Ha! 

OK, here is the "After" video of the P-10C barrel after about 6 VFG pellets, 20 strokes for each, patch cleaning between with some Hoppe's #9.  This worked pretty well.  Still some carbon in the grooves, but a lot less than before, and virtually no copper. 

https://youtu.be/3eKizaRTdOo

I'm done with this one.  No more today!  But I may stick that borescope in my ears/nose/throat...just for kicks.  Video at 10!!   

Just kidding!!   

Joe

[Tok36]

I think the barrel is happy you can see it smiling if you look close at the 2:27 mark.