Author Topic: P-09 barrel, clean enough?  (Read 29849 times)

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Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2020, 11:40:33 AM »
Joe, 
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.

I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go.   ;D
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2020, 12:39:31 PM »
Yep, I'm perfectly happy with the pistols.  I am going to spend some time today on that pesky .22 rifle that won't shoot better than 3" at 100 yards now, but used to be good for 1/2".  Gotta be something visual that the borescope can help me identify, I think.
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline eastman

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2020, 04:26:42 PM »
Joe, 
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.

I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go.   ;D

Considering the success o 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
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Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2020, 06:57:53 PM »
Joe, 
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.

I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go.   ;D

Considering the success o 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.

Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline eastman

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2020, 08:27:53 PM »
Joe, 
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.

I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go.   ;D

Considering the success of 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.

Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.

CZ doesn't use 5R (as far as I know), but one of the design features of 5R rifling is the lack of sharp corners to the rifling. This causes less bullet damage and makes the bore easier to clean. It is considered a premium, more accurate barrel from companies that do offer them (S&W/Thompson-Center, Savage, etc)

The vz 82 does use polygonal rifling.
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Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2020, 10:08:28 AM »
Joe, 
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.

I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go.   ;D

Considering the success of 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.

Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.

CZ doesn't use 5R (as far as I know), but one of the design features of 5R rifling is the lack of sharp corners to the rifling. This causes less bullet damage and makes the bore easier to clean. It is considered a premium, more accurate barrel from companies that do offer them (S&W/Thompson-Center, Savage, etc)

The vz 82 does use polygonal rifling.
Eastman,
You've got me wondering now....maybe there IS something different about the P series barrels that make them such accurate shooters as Joe has proven!
I mean, my 75's are accurate too, but the improvements CZ incorporated into the P series pistols like Nitride barrel and slide, polished feed ramps, etc I wouldn't be surprised if there was something subtle CZ improved with the P series barrels too.??
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline CCWLearner

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2020, 01:06:21 PM »
I'm definitely no expert on what it takes to achieve handgun accuracy, as far as the barrel, it's rifling, fit to the slide, etc.  I mainly need my handguns to be reliable, not rust, and shoot minute-of-badguy at 10 yards.  However, I was looking at the Primary Machine website, on the product page for their P-07 match barrels, and they had this interesting comparison image:



I have no idea what all the factors are to achieve that kind of improved group size at 25 yards with a P-09 barrel.  Maybe Joe or another long range target shooter could comment.

Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2020, 04:38:42 PM »
I read pretty much only good reports on the Primary Machine barrels, and that is great.  There has got to be variations in the P-09 barrels and lock up from the factory.  So, in my opinion, the value of the Primary Arms barrel is pretty much dependent on how good or bad your original barrel/slide is.  If you have a CZ barrel that is at the loose end of the tolerance stack, an aftermarket barrel might show a good result.  If you are lucky, like me, and already have really good barrel/slide fits, I think even Primary Machine would suggest spending your money on more ammo and practice. 

Similar to the CGW 10x bushing question--how much smaller will my groups be?  I had a very sloppy factory bushing in a 9mm 75B slide, so the 10x bushing was the best money I ever spent on it.  Most people don't have a factory bushing that is as sloppy as mine was, so they see less improvement. 

I have shot several sub 4" groups at a 100 yards with the factory barrels/slides now in the polymer models.  I don't think any aftermarket barrel would improve on that.  If the factory pistol was spreading out the group to one or two feet at 100 yards (over 3" at 25), I would try a Primary Arms barrel or sell the gun.  The OEM barrel in the example on the PA website would certainly be a candidate.  None of my polymer CZ's are candidates.  My opinion is that the CZ barrel/slides are very good on average, but I only have a very small sample to go by.  Good to have a source for a potentially better barrel if you have a poor shooter. 

My opinion is that the accuracy of the pistol is much more dependent on the lock up tightness to the slide than it is to bore finishing, assuming the crown is good and that the machining is uniform in the barrel, even if not smooth.  Humans love smooth shiny mirror finished bores, a rough bullet just sees a hole that is too small that it is going to be forced through very quickly.   
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #143 on: May 10, 2020, 06:09:55 PM »
Joe,
You mentioned something about barrel crown effecting accuracy and I wonder if this is something we should be looking at more carefully while cleaning?

I have a SR P-07 that seems to get a bit 'crusty' under the thread protector after a range session. Although I try to clean off this residue when I field strip, I have to wonder if it's having some effect upon this pistol's accuracy. I mean, it's crusting so badly I have to use sandpaper to remove it. I wonder if I should be removing the thread protector prior to firing?

This U-Tube video by Midway's Larry Potterfield shows him correcting a barrel crown. With a lathe!  Sheesh!
How's the crown on that pesky 22 rifle??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsg-Yt6t-HM
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2020, 06:56:01 PM »
Vinny--crown looks good on the .22.  The grooves AND lands are rough and somewhat irregular on the .22 barrel.  I am going to try to smooth it out with some rough VFG pellets and JB Bore paste.  If that doesn't work, I'll buy a CZ.  The .22 rifle is the only firearm I have left that doesn't shoot well.  I've fixed the 1911, so the .22 is next. 

A crown cutter from Midway is over $100, so I am going to hold off on the crown.  Current crown looks excellent anyway. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline CCWLearner

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2020, 01:35:01 AM »
I carried my P-07 to the range yesterday and ran the following through it:

34 Federal HST 147gr
50 Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ
50 Remington UMC 147gr FMJ
50 Blazer Brass 115gr FMJ
20 Syntech Defense 138gr

When I was done shooting, I pulled a dry 9mm Ramrodz swab through my barrel from breech to muzzle several times, to remove the loose carbon, while the barrel was still warm.  I pulled another one through the barrel several more times after I got it home and field stripped it.

Here's what I found with the bore scope afterward:






Still plenty of carbon in there, in the grooves and on the lands.  Interestingly enough, though, I don't see any copper like what I had in there previously.  I'm going to try to clean this barrel with Eezox only, which won't do much to remove any copper.  If I get all the carbon out and see no copper, I'll skip the Hoppes #9 this time.

Also noteworthy is I was able to wipe my feed ramp 99% clean with nothing but dry swabs, paper towel, and patch cloth.  That isn't something I could accomplish with my older Hoppes + Ballistol cleaning regimen, before I started treating the barrel with Eezox.

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2020, 10:23:04 AM »
CCW, You make a good point. Get to it sooner rather than 'later'.

I carry a terry hand towel in my range bag and while she's still smok'in hot, I wrap the terry around my pinkie and clean the feed ramp, breach face, and the muzzle end and the residue wipes off easily. I should probably run a cable down the bore with patch too, but honestly I don't. Too many guns, not enough time.  lol

If I wait until later I have to use Hoppe's to dissolve it. And with life coming at you fast, later could be ..........

As the old saying goes...."A stitch in time saves nine."
Something to think about.
"Fear is a reaction, Courage is a decision"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2020, 08:09:01 PM »
About right.  You guys clean your pistols before they cool down, and my goal used to be to clean them before the next national holiday.   :)

But I did just clean the P-10S barrel that I shot all of 40 rounds through this morning.  Soaked in the olive jar for 20 minutes, then brush, then patches until it came clean.  Well, pretty clean. 

I'm also trying the Eezox this trip, just to see how that stuff works on a carry gun.  The slide "feels" slick and the trigger feels fine.  P-10S was working just fine today.  At 100 yards, see video in "day at the range" if interested. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

skin

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #148 on: May 15, 2020, 12:39:22 AM »
 Joe, how did the 22 go? Did my 452 trainer today. Never cleaned before, just when I bought it in 06. It's a hunting rifle to me. Some carbon around the throat area and some light lead down the bore. Just pulled a bore snake to get moisture out every time I hunted when wet. Cleaned up really easy. I'm surprised. I guess everyone lucks out every once in a while.

Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2020, 06:45:08 AM »
Joe, how did the 22 go? Did my 452 trainer today. Never cleaned before, just when I bought it in 06. It's a hunting rifle to me. Some carbon around the throat area and some light lead down the bore. Just pulled a bore snake to get moisture out every time I hunted when wet. Cleaned up really easy. I'm surprised. I guess everyone lucks out every once in a while.
I put the 22 back in the safe.  I did all I could to get it smooth and didn't really make much progress.  Bore still looks rough, even after a bunch of JB Bore Paste and VFG pellets.  Too frustrating when I can shoot everything else pretty well.  I'll get it back out after I confirm the problem isn't with me by shooting the 308 at distance.  That 308 is like the P-10F, bore looks rough, always shoot just fine clean or not. 
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR