Author Topic: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions  (Read 3828 times)

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Offline glen455

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Green horn here never reloaded. I did the plunk test and I did not have a fired brass case so that data is not going to be displayed. I will say anything at or below the sellier belloit length of 1.160 should work? It appears it the cz test round of choice.  If anyone has any data for berry 124gr rn  #19324 that they can share that would be great. I got familiar with my press by mimicking the sellier belloit 124 rn . What I realized is that it seems some threads here suggest a different overall length.  Can anyone share their oal and grains for 124 gr?

Then of course the win231 thread thats a hb hollow back mines not. https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62107.msg410585#msg410585 .

can I do this as a starting point  ?

Your W231 is a great powder to start with! Start low and work up with test loads. For example;
Below is the W231 data from Hodgdon website.

Manufacturer   Powder   Bullet Diam.    C.O.L.   Grs.    Vel.(ft/s)      Pressure     Grs.      Vel.    (ft/s)Pressure
Winchester       231         .356"          1.150"   3.9         920        27,400PSI    4.4      1,037     31,900 PSI

Your starting load with W231 should be at 3.9. Next 4.0 Next 4.1 etc.  (See Above) Don't go past the max recommended please. All here would like to keep forum newbies in one piece.  O0
So load 8 to 10 rounds at each weight to test which load performs the best in your SP01. 

The text below is me getting familiar to my machine and thinking sellier belloit knows best and if I could with your help copy their proven size and get the charge right. 


New to reloading. Purchased square deal b removed the 10 mm from tool head installed the 9mm dies.
New hornady brass. Station 1 deprime resize no adjustment. Station 2 flair brass for bullet new brass .371 sized to .377 works for me could be bigger. station 3 oal with berry 124 round nose 1.161  hornady brass. station 3 oal with pulled sellier- bellot  round nose bullet hornady brass 1.159. sellier- bellot new out of box oal 1.160. station 4 crimp new sellier- bellot .378  ,  hornady brass plus berry .376 , sellier- bellot bullet plus hornady brass .376.

My plunk test shadow 2 with new brass resized showed about 1.181 i lightly tapped round in. I did not have spent expanded brass So the math gives a -.015 of 1.166
I would like to mimmic the sellier- bellot out of box oal of 1.160.
berry 124 round nose .356 #19324   
winchester 231 ball powder

thanks for any advice        hornady $26 digital caliper used

 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2020, 08:42:20 AM »
Welcome Aboard !

Love the green horns, but they clash with the blue SDB press.  O0  Not to worry, you won't be wearing those long.

• Lots and lots of press setup/adjustment to do before reloading. Chief among these is the Sizing (1st station) and Taper Crimp (4th station). We highly suggest you practice on "dummy" rounds (no powder/ no primer) to do setup before going into production on the real stuff.

• You need a printed Load Manual. We highly suggest the Lyman #50 (hardback edition). Websites go down. Data can change daily. Computers screw up. A printed book is always there with you. You can use a highlighter and make notes in the margins. You can add PostIt notes and thumb tabs to open the book quickly. You need a printed Load Manual.

But you can start with the Hodgdon load data... if you make note of their OAL. In 9mm, the OAL is just as important as the powder weight. The load consists of powder weight AND OAL.

• You also need a personal load notebook. It can have any form you like from 99 cent spiral bound subject book to 3-ring binder with index tabs. I highly suggest a format that uses 1 page per bullet. Put your own spin on it, but something like...



• We don't share load information on this forum, simply because there is no faster way for you to get hurt. Instead we'll teach you to develop your own data which you can then use to develop other loads, some not listed anywhere. It's the old "Give a man a fish, versus Teach a man to fish" routine.

• You can take some lessons from S&B ammo, but again, let's not "copy S&B", let's simply learn what we can and keep moving. You are not Seller and I and not Bellot, so let's be better than them. Why copy someone who has the limits of needing to produce 10,000 rounds per minute ? I have no such restriction, and I suspect neither do you. Let your personal goal be maximum quality ammo (which is really maximum safety ammo). And you simply can't get there by "copying" factory ammo.

• You are quite correct. The Berry bullet has a rather unique ability to load very long in a CZ chamber. (Don't get too accustomed to that length, because most other bullets are not so forgiving.) There is a physical limit at 1.169" set by SAAMI. That's a Maximum Limit for 9x19 Luger, meaning if you want the cartridges to elevate and feed from the magazine you'll need to be even shorter than that. Thus, 1.160" is the longest 9mm cartridge I'd ever want to load.

But again, that's a Limit. The interstate speed limit is 70mph, but that also allows cars to drive 55 and 60mph. 70mph is only the upper Limit or Maximum. Similarly, your useful Max OAL is around 1.160", but that is not your loading OAL, only your upper Limit. If it suits you, you can load even shorter. And guess what ? It does suit you !

What I will share is that our testing here proves that shorter OALs work better in the CZ. You really want to be loading this bullet at an OAL around 1.130". And notice... this is where the Hodgdon web site fails you. They list their load data at an OAL of 1.150" which is useless to you. (I would say "utterly useless", but it's too early in your career to bring in the cows. Even cows with green horns.)

• So because the OAL is going to be shorter, the load must also start lower. By starting at 3.8gr you'll be OK. If you'll carefully and methodically load up 5-8 cartridges using 1.130" at 3.8gr, 3.9gr, 4.0gr, 4.1gr, 4.2gr, 4.3gr, and 4.4gr and mark them. It will look something like this...



Now, 3.8gr will probably shoot, but not operate the slide completely. You'll be looking for a load that not only shoots nicely, but operates the gun correctly. IOW, locks the slide to the rear on the last round. If you shoot each load at a different target you'll see the accuracy change and that makes it easy to pick a good load for your gun. Now understand this... that load is only good for that bullet with that powder in that gun. You put it in your Glock or Beretta and it could be poop. But that simple little test is going to find what works best in your CZ.

• As far as your press goes... You want the sizing die to come as far down as possible. With the Berry you won't need much flare. Use the RN seating stem (or course) and read the instructions on setting Taper Crimp in the Stickies.

Because those dies are not carbide, you'll probably want to start lubricating your brass. You can do it 5 at a time with a Roll Pad, or 200 at a time with a spray. But lubrication will help you in several ways, including helping you keep a more consistent OAL. It's a good thing.

You most definitely want one of THESE when you can get one.

Lastly, SBDs are bad to wear at the bottom-most pivot points. (The bottom of the ram, and the bottom of the "dog bones".) Be sure and keep motor oil or CLP on those 4 points.


We want to hear more about your adventures.

Hope this bit helps.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 12:03:11 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline WNCRob

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 02:51:38 PM »
The Lyman reloading book is an essential...I still have mine and its a 2002 version for Pistols.  And I have a SDB that is about 30 years old...have just set it up after a 15 year hiatus.  As mentioned above, lubing the brass is essential (don't over-do it), and you'll probably want to get a brass cleaning system from Dillon.  In particular, be careful of the crimp...don't over-do it as the 9mm headspaces on the rim.  Anyway, the lyman manual does an excellent job of explaining this...and there is a lot of info on 231, as well. Finally, get an inexpensive chrono...ProChrony is fine, and keep notes of your results. I mount mine on a camera tripod that I got used...cheap!.  I typically run at least 5 samples of each load and throw out any that are significantly out of bounds.  And just be careful...when reloading 9mm, never exceed the MINIMUM OAL as specified by the manufacturer...but that can be difficult sometimes because they may not have specs for your particular bullet.  Again, Lyman can be very helpful here. 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 06:14:46 AM »
And just be careful...when reloading 9mm, never exceed the MINIMUM OAL as specified by the manufacturer...but that can be difficult sometimes because they may not have specs for your particular bullet. 

Rob -
You'll want to explain this last sentence.
• If we define "exceed" to mean "go over" or "be greater than" (as in "exceeding the speed limit"), then the only place you can go from the Minimum is to become greater than the Minimum and grow toward the Maximum.

• "As specified by the manufacturer" of the bullet ? of the powder ? I'm not aware of the specifications you are referring to.

Please clarify. Thanks.
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Offline glen455

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2020, 10:39:58 PM »
Thanks for the help. I was waiting for parts and went through many many dry runs to get into a safe zone. The berrys arent all the same length. oal changes for the tip of the bullet.  SDB does not have a lock for seating bullet someday maybe ill buy one i did install a new friction plate basically cutting new threads. I read that having a small or proper flare will make sure the powder drop will be fully activated. Powder bar fully in on stroke. I have seen springs on powder slide should I get some? Also slowly or moderately  using the lever will allow all powder to drop and wont spit powder as the charged case advances to the seating. my crimp is .378. Powder measure I installed a double alpha click knob it gives a green horn a reference. Well worth the $ imho. Powder in reservoir 1/2 way up couple taps to assist settling. Empty brass casing with dead primer that has been weighed on my  elcheapo amazon scale that has the 2 10 g cal weights included. Im starting at 4.00 my scale reads 4.04 4.06 4.06 4.08 4.04 4.04 4.06. I will note that as my 4.00 load.  or my 4 and a half.   I bought the vibraprime and am doing dry runs it works well but there is a learning curve to it. I weighed a sellier bellot powder charge for 115 gn and came up with around 4.7 just wanted to check.   
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 11:02:52 PM by glen455 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 08:13:53 AM »
• Manufacturing techniques mean that bullets from the same batch will vary in length. This is true of most all bullet makers. Measure 5-8 and take the average as the "working" number.

• You cannot seat most bullets without the flare (aka "belling"). Berry is one of the few you can. And making/adding case flare is the natural result of using the Dillon powder measure. But flare is at the end of a list of conditions needed to make the powder drop into the case. I'd have to say that density, humidity, temperature, and static totally out-rank the need for flare to get the powder to output correctly from the Dillon powder measure. You're a smart guy. Sit down and think about this subject, and I believe you'll see who is correct in this matter.

• Some of us here add springs or rubber bands to assist in the return of the Powder Bar. It's the positive return action that shakes the entire Powder Measure to result in more accurate powder weights. See this thread: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=110650.0   for more information.

• The press needs to be operated at the exact same speed on every stroke to deliver minimal OAL variations. The full stroke (with primer seating) usually takes between 2 to 3 seconds per round. It's not fast, but that's a fully finished round every 3 seconds. This is not a race. The object is to make the best ammo within your power, not to make shoddy ammo "fast".

• Weight of brass has the MOST variation in the system. DO NOT weigh the case, or allow the weight of the cases into your powder measurements or calculations. Weigh the powder YES; not the powder and the case. There is NO instance in reloading where you will need to weigh the case. None.

• 10 gram check weights are totally USELESS to you. You'll be using weights in the 4-5 grain range, so you'll need to purchase a 5 grain check weight. 10 grams is equal to 154.3 grains. So that's like zeroing your bathroom scale with Ayers Rock before you weigh yourself !!

• You'd need a $400 to $500 apothecary scale to measure to 2 decimal places in Grains. The numbers may appear on the screen, but they mean absolutely nothing. View that second digit as about as reliable and truthful as a car salesman. We work in tenths of a grain (1/10th, 0.1) here, and that's all you need. So all you need to report is that you are starting at 4.0gr...

• Starting at 4.0gr is probably too HIGH. In reloading, you always want to err on the side of safety. IMHO, to be safe you should start about 3.8gr. W231 is a benign powder and won't do anything weird by starting a little lower. We added to the W231 thread just yesterday. Go check out the load range in the very last test.

• You can take some lessons from S&B ammo, but again, let's not "copy S&B", let's simply learn what we can and keep moving. You are not Seller and I and not Bellot, so let's be better than them. Why copy someone who has the limits of needing to produce 10,000 rounds per minute ? I have no such restriction, and I suspect neither do you. Let your personal goal be maximum quality ammo (which is really maximum safety ammo). And you simply can't get there by "copying" factory ammo.

Again, most of what S&B is doing means nothing to you. Nothing helpful at least. The weight of the S&B powder means nothing since you don't know what powder they are using. You cannot identify the powder by looking at it, and they are not going to tell you. Why do you persist in following ? Your handloads will be far better and more accurate.

Stop following; start leading.

All the best.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 08:47:21 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline glen455

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 10:25:25 PM »
I have abandoned the digital scale and will use the Dillon Eliminator that came with the press.  I compared the dillon to the cheap digital and it was way off. My fingers thumb and one good eye thank wobbly for the heads up. 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 12:29:59 PM »
The digital scales simply fail in so many weird ways... none of which you expect or prepare for... therefore when failure is discovered, people have either gotten hurt, or X hundred rounds need to be unloaded, or both. And neither of those is "fun".


A plot of scale accuracy across a wide weight range

This cartoon graphically shows how your scale can "zero" perfectly with a huge weight (for instance 20 grams), but be adversely affected by friction at lower measurements and "weirded out" by temperature or drafts at a higher range.

The balance beam is only affected by gravity and pivot friction. Thus a plot of accuracy is a straight line. If it's "off" at any point, then it will be "off" all across the board by the same percentage. That's a much easier issue to catch in the early stages.

Don't get me wrong. I have digital scales and put them to good use, but they are not my primary powder scale. If I have a handful of mixed bullet weights and need to sort them, then digital can be great. Or if my powder adjustment is WAY off and it's going to take 10 adjustments to get to my new setting, then I might use the digital on weights 1 through 8.

Another plus for balance beams, especially one as good as a Dillon Eliminator, is that you'll still have it in 35 years. When you pull out the old gun you haven't shot in a long time and look up the old "favorite load", you can be assured that 4.7gr now is same 4.7gr you used way back when. Whereas you might be on your third or fourth low-cost digital scale since you last did that particular load. Where's the continuity if you need to buy a new scale every 12 to 14 months ?

End of rant.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 12:35:31 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline glen455

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2020, 09:26:45 PM »
Went to range steel targets at 17- 25 + yards started with some sellier bellot 124 just to get a feel.  Loaded up some 3.9 5 rounds and was amazed how nice it was to shoot those locked on empty mag. Then moved up 4.0 4.1 4.2. Gun cycled great with all. They are not allowing any paper targets. So before range I went to a local gun store had the smith bore sight my new pistol with new burris fastfire  for 10 bucks I asked should I loctite the burris fast fire screws his reply I wouldnt :o. He tightened it.  I had a feeling they would back out and they did. 100 degrees Arizona heat also shooting ruger 22/45 I did not notice until I looked at pistol after getting home 1 screw loose and 1 was in case. My fault for not checking. I used harbor freight loctite just now. I think Ill try a mix of 3.9 and 4.0 for next weekend. I should probably spend the $25 to go to an indoor range and adjust the sights the old fashioned way.  I also ordered a recoil spring kit. Overall I am excited about creating ammunition that I like and
enjoy.  Low recoil and then theres the accuracy puzzle to complete.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 09:59:17 PM by glen455 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2020, 09:06:37 AM »
Hey, congrats ! It feels really good doesn't it.

So let's review...
• The main thing you want to establish is a safe loading process. Not so much which goes into the press first: powder or primers ? But that you check your bullet OAL to work in your gun. That you measure the max OAL the bullet allows and then subtract 0.015" to get the Max Working OAL, then decide upon an OAL to use in Production (which might even be shorter). That you write all that down in your personal notebook. (You can even make note of the die height that the press uses to deliver the Production OAL.) Then proceed in a logical and safe manner in setting up the powder measure. Then finally realize that the process is not "cast in stone", it should continuously evolve to add more safety factors over time.

• Realize that if you want better results, then try the Hollow Base line from Berry. The next step up from there is the conical Flat Point plated from Berry or RMR. Then the next step up from there is the jacketed conical FP or conical JHP. Keep trying new bullets. Improve the components and you'll see incremental improvements in your targets.

• You've got great powder and primers which you can play with forever. The main thing is the setup of the powder measure before starting the loading. Just make sure not to use any of the first 10 drops in production.

• Continue to refine your brass collection and cleaning process.

• Lastly, you'll see that your personal shooting improves the more you shoot. Lots of specially tailored ammo makes that not only possible, but fun.

Enjoy.  ;)
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Offline glen455

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2020, 11:24:36 PM »
Press was set up for 10mm I swap over to 9mm. Greenhorn checks all dies they all say 9mm forgets to check seat . Only 1 seat 9mm included  There was no part # so i assumed its ok = wrong. . 2 days ago i compare it to the 2 10mm and i have a wadcutter 9mm in it oops. I proceed to check to see if 9mm rn will hit nose  on 10mm rn seat and die. Chuck brass and seated bullet into drill insert into rn 10mm good no grooves on nose. Have waited to use will probably go to dillon and pick up proper part.

Moving forward I found myself over emphasizing the lever to give my self some assurance of properly completing each cycle. Having found I was doing a double up stroke proper primer seating. My hand was also switching positions on the lever so I ordered a roller handle = fixed hand position should allow less steps = improved ergonomics. More torque also.

Powder = first for me the double alpha click with the arrows tool less  a must have no guessing for me.
I am not taking 4 grains and adding it to the hopper  and thinking that that small amount will impact anything.
It can go into a cup so the process is faster.

Station 2 only operational 5 powder fills check adjust repeat. Repeat again while adjusting. Rock through some more get some confidence.  Settle on grains via beam scale and proceed.  I say rock through on beam scale not digital I will never do that again. If the hopper fill level is important we agree I should mark the starting line. Then refill as needed. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 08:21:08 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 07:56:16 AM »
• The op lever on the SDB is built in. Actually cast into part of the mechanism. I don't think you can add or bolt on an "ergo" handle. If you can, I'd sure like to see photos.





One time up, then one time down. Now, at the end of the stroke it's OK to lean on the lever or press harder to insure good primer seating. But don't back-off any distance and have another go at it.

• If your SDB seating stems screw in, but are simply the wrong size for the bullets, then you can build them up with a filler epoxy, like JB Weld. You'd sand the inside of the seating area to scuff it up, add the very viscous epoxy, then lower it onto a correctly made cartridge that has the bullet greased (so it won't adhere) within the press. The epoxy will cure with the better bullet shape inside the cup. It may wear over time, but you can keep building it up.

I have some spare SDB seaters you can have. They are over-sized too (44 & 45), but it's some material to work with. Eventually you'd be doing this anyway because Dillon does not offer a conical seating stem for Conical FP.

• Agreed.. if the digital scale is WAY off or simply untrustworthy, then save the power supply for other things and trash the scale. There is no repairing those things. Better to have it out of your life.

• There's no magic to the powder level within the hopper. We are approximating that to be more than 1/3 full and about 1/2 full. The Dillon PM has a very nice powder baffle built into the unit, which (as previously explained) eliminates the exact level of the powder as a cause for any concern. If you need a mark as a reminder, then simply put a small strip of painter's tape on the hopper. In a couple of weeks when you are much more at ease, then you can remove it.

 ;)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 08:33:19 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline glen455

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 10:34:12 PM »
The handle is great makes every action so much less effort. 


Hit the range with some 4.0 loads was ok I want less recoil. And once again I did not loctite my egw dovetail mount in. It went in really tight with a modified dovetail press so I was surprised the mount slid a bit to the right very small single set screw. I did not want to fight it if I wanted to change it. I kinda thought ok that dot moves a lot on the slide while firing burris ff3 8 moa. I was going to get the CZ Custom frame mount, then the jig then the drills taps then without a drill press I decided not to.  I purchased a Carver Custom sight mount.  I emailed pics of Shadow2 to to the owner he said it should work.  I know, good luck finding a holster.

IF and that's a big if where it mounts to the single slot has any play I will then drill and tap into that meat. Looks like a sturdy well built unit. Back to the reloading. Next is to make some 3.9 and 3.8 loads. I have 5k berry 124 rn and primers to match. 

Kinda pricey at 80 bucks but you only live once.  LINK     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWPwsZlvpw 

I have not been using the front of the trigger guard with left hand index finger and will try that next time out.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 07:50:25 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2020, 08:05:13 AM »
The handle is great makes every action so much less effort. 



• Never seen one of those handles. Yes, it would make things easier. Congrats.

• When you go to the range, you should be taking a full range of ammo to test (e.g. 3.8, 4.0, 4.2, 4.4gr, etc). In this way you rule out week-to-week changes in atmospheric pressure, ambient noise, lighting, etc, etc. And you only need to do this one time before you start your production runs.

Such a test might look like this...


You're getting there.


PS. When you go to post a photo... select the button that says BBCode (message boards & forums)
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Offline WNCRob

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Re: win 231, berry 124gr rn #19324 , shadow 2 square deal b questions
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2020, 01:05:30 PM »
Wobbly, you asked me to respond to respond to your comments/questions as posed on May 30 in which you referenced my prior comment to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended Minimum OAL. To me, when a manufacturer such as Alliant states a Minimum OAL, if one "exceeds" that minimum, that is loads to a shorter OAL, pressure issues can arise.  Since this is a warning to not load shorter, to me exceeding the recommended limit on a Minimum spec., such as loading shorter,  is a proper application of the word "exceed" in this case.   Now, if I were referring to a Maximum OAL, then I would agree with your analysis.   It's a question of context.