Is 9 mm any different than 45 ACP?

[DesertRatR]

This isn't a smarty post. I am trying to save a learning curve. I load several revolver calibers and also 45 ACP. I have a process for 45 ACP that works for me and that produces ammo that shoots well in all my 1911s (I tweak the recipe a bit depending upon bullet weight and particular gun ... they don't all like the same loads). I have one 9 mm, a Shadow I picked last year. It is time for me to start loading 9 mm. Both are rimless cases that head space off the case mouth. So I am assuming that the process for loading 9mm is the same as for 45 ACP. I plan to buy some 147 gr bullets and some brass and start loading. Before setting primers and adding powder I load empty cases to get the crimp right and get an OAL that fits the barrel.  Since I only have a single barrel, rather than a case gage I'll check the fit (plunk test) in that barrel. 

When I get to loading powder I always start with the low end of the manual (I use Speer and Lyman) and then chronograph a few, checking for accuracy. I believe that 9 mm is scored as minor in USPSA and IDPA so no point in loading hot (I load as light as I can go in 45 anyway ... no point in beating up me or the gun).

Am I correct in thinking the 9 mm process is no different than the 45 ACP process?  Also, what taper do folks like? Half a thou, no more than one thou is what I use for 45 ACP.

BTW, I think 147 gr is the best choice for recoil management. Comments?

[terrapin]

No big deal between the two.  If anything I’ve found the 9mm to be a bit more forgiving than 45 for feeding issues, but that’s probably the gun.

There’s tons of good loads for 147 gr competition bullets.  I use Titegroup because it is cheap.  It’s also dirty and so dense that a double charge would be very possible.  CFE-Pistol has worked well.  If I didn’t mind ordering powder, I would probably use Vihtavoura N320.  It seems to be the most well regarded powder in competition circles.


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[tdogg]

45 ACP is much more forgiving as compared to 9mm luger.  The process isn't different at all really but the room for error is less when loading 9mm.  Component selection is more critical in 9mm especially on CZ's that have a Nato spec chamber.  Not all 147 gr bullets will load proper in a CZ due to the short/tight chamber.  The 9mm cartridge has a much higher max pressure 35ksi vs 45 ACP at 21ksi, it's a potent little cartridge!

Your best bet is to post up what components you have/want to purchase to see if anyone has any experience using them in a CZ.  What powder, bullet, load range, etc... Ideally you would purchase a sample pack of bullets to do your load development and testing with prior to a bulk purchase.  With the crazyness going on everything is more difficult to find right now so good luck shopping!

If you want to shoot lead/coated lead you should pick a .356/.357 bullet size.  I would start with a lighter bullet personally (124 gr).  It will be easier to load long in most cases and give you more powder selections.  Sure 147 might be "softer" but it is also more lethargic/slower.  9mm minor isn't that stout so unless your shooting a polymer subcompact I would worry too much about it.

I'd set a crimp diameter at roughly .377-.378 but you should verify it with the chosen bullet (especially if lead).  Crimp is used to remove the case flare imparted to seat the bullet, so the ideal crimp diameter is the diameter of an unflared case with your chosen bullet seated (not easy to do with coated lead).  Taper crimp does not dictate how well the bullet is held in the case, that is determined during sizing and expansion.

Cheers,
Toby

[Wobbly]

We get this question fairly often. "I'm starting out, which caliber should I learn first ?" People usually want to start with 9mm, possibly thinking that smaller is easier. That is actually not the case. 45ACP is, like you have done, where you want to start. This is because reloading techniques for 45ACP are a sub-set of 9mm. So everything you learned about loading 45ACP you'll need, plus you'll need to learn some new stuff. This doesn't mean it's harder or more difficult, but there is an added layer of knowledge you'll need to acquire.

Things I'll point out...
• 45ACP is a low-pressure cartridge with the norm for 45ACP being about half of what they are for 9mm. You can play with the 45ACP OAL without changing the load. OAL variations of 0.010" don't really mean that much. Whereas in 9mm, OAL variations of 0.010" are in the critical zone, and load reductions will need to be considered. "Bullet set back" and other OAL changes become a really big deal in 9mm.

• This difference in chamber pressure is why 45ACP needs a slightly faster powder than is usually used in 9mm. So whereas 45ACP does well with N310 and N320, 9mm does best with the slightly slower N320 and N330 powders. Very slow powders that can only be used in 9mm at the very top end of the load scale (like CFE Pistol and HS-6), shouldn't be used at all in 45ACP.

• Most of the physical problems come from the fact that 9mm Luger uses a tapered case design, whereas almost all other pistol and revolver cartridges are straight-walled. That means poor taper crimp might not allow a 45ACP to even enter the chamber. The issue then is self-evident. But due to the tapered chamber of the 9mm, cartridges with poor taper crimp get half-way into the chamber before having issues. Inserted half-way where you can't see what's going on. The issue mimics other problems. Diagnosis is much more difficult.

Hope this helps.

[Tok36]

Interesting stuff.

[DesertRatR]

We get this question fairly often. "I'm starting out, which caliber should I learn first ?" People usually want to start with 9mm, possibly thinking that smaller is easier. That is actually not the case. 45ACP is, like you have done, where you want to start. This is because reloading techniques for 45ACP are a sub-set of 9mm. So everything you learned about loading 45ACP you'll need, plus you'll need to learn some new stuff. This doesn't mean it's harder or more difficult, but there is an added layer of knowledge you'll need to acquire.

LOL, I was told once upon a time out at my club that the 45 ACP was a hard caliber to get right (or something to that effect), back when I was just starting out. He implied there was a learning curve. And he was right!  I made a lot of mistakes, but as you point its fairly forgiving. So thru lots of questions in the 1911 forum and just plain trial and error I eventually got to where it worked: PF very consistently about 170, F2F very rare, and good accuracy for me. I am still futzing with springs and extractor tension / ejector angle to try to achieve ejection nirvana. Everyone needs a hobby.

I never had any interest in 9 mm, until I bought the Shadow last year. And it makes sense that the higher pressure and smaller volume means higher sensitivity to parameter variability.  And good point about the tapered case. One thing I've learned is start with no powder / primer just to make sure feeding works. Plunk test helps a lot.

As for powder, I have several pounds of Unique, a fair amount of Titegroup and a lot of 700X (got that during the Obama years panic, 700X was available). Both Speer and Lyman have load data for all three. As for speed 700X and Titegroup are ranked 12 and 14, respectively on the relative burn rate charts I have, and Unique is 31. I prefer lead bullets from SNS Casting or Missouri Bullet. I try to get hardness right for the pressure. And I have a lot of small primers as well as large primers.

Today out at a match at my club a guy shooting a Shadow 2 had a squib. He was unable to pound out the bullet. He commented that the 147 gr he loaded is pretty long so there was a lot more engagement. Maybe I should start with 124 gr rather than the 147 gr I was contemplating, until I get comfortable and have data.

[Wobbly]

Several thoughts, which will hopefully help you....

• Very glad you mentioned your shooting buddy's issues. You've got some really good reloading experience with your 45, but you are in fact making a double leap, and I want to sensitize you to that fact so that you are fully aware. Otherwise a lot of head scratching (and missing hair) will ensue.
1) First you are jumping from 45ACP to 9mm, which has all the aforementioned issues, dilemmas, headaches and causes for celebration brought on by the tapered chamber. We pretty well covered all that in the previous post.

2) You are also moving from a chamber with a generous leade to a 9mm CZ chamber which has one of the shortest freebores in the shooting world. This fact rules out a lot of your bullet choices. You need to be VERY choosy when selecting bullets for a CZ. Not every bullet offered for sale can be used in a CZ chamber. This includes a lot of 147gr simply due to their length, and some strangely shaped 124gr bullets too. This is all covered in the Stickies at the top of the forum and you'd do well to take heed of those lessons before ordering any bullets. HERE. More than one reloader has been stuck with 1000 bullets they couldn't use, including yours truly.

• I may be wrong, but I believe the Shadow series has a larger barrel and therefore requires a larger .357/.358" lead bullet than most CZ's. There was a thread about this within just the last month. Review the forum. Special sizes alone will limit your bullet choices.

• None of the powders you mention are going to be great in 9mm. TG will (as always) require great precision during loading, and possibly run too hot for using lead bullets. Unique will run too slow and end up being very sooty/ messy, plus it has metering issues. OK for plinking and practice, not so good for competition. 700X is about the correct speed, but also has severe metering issues.

Powder is impossible to find right now, but come Black Friday you'll want to hunt up a couple of pounds of Alliant Sport Pistol.


A general location in your profile would help us help you.

There's more. I'll think of it this evening. 

[Dan_69GTX]

Yes, please follow the "how to determine OAL" stickie.  A friend didn't and his gun now has some "issues".  Luckily his hand is fine.

[Wobbly]

And since you're "club shooting", don't make the mistake of picking up 9mm brass fired from "9 Major" guns. You'd need a 'roll sizer' to put that brass back into circulation. That brass will create another brand new issue and can/ will get tightly wedged into the tapered chamber.

And you haven't experienced "tightly wedged live round feed jam" until you find one of those. 

[larryflew]

Powder wise I had a HUGE amount of Unique from my trap shooting days and have loaded my 9mm with it for years (and will until I'm dead by what I have left). If you have newer Unique it isn't as dirty as it used to be. Either old or new IMO it isn't a bad light loading powder but far from being an excellent powder for 9mm.  I only do 124 grain either Montana Gold or double plated Berry's in round nose.  I have not done 147 because a purchased a case of loaded speer GD years ago and still have a lot of those left.  When I do steel shoots with poppers involved I use the 147 for other comps I use my 124 ammo.

[DesertRatR]

Thanks all for the above. I like the OAL measurement procedure. BTW, what is wrong with measuring factory ammo to get OAL?

I can't find a taper crimp die anywhere. Everyone is out of stock for the Lee 90780. The only 9 mm dies I can find are RCBS. Reloading 9 mm may have to wait awhile.

As for brass I have learned to not pick up range brass. I only load Starline.

[larryflew]

"Lee Taper Crimp Die For 9MM/38 Super/380 ACP/38 ACP - The Lee taper crimp dies is hardened steel designed to overcome crimp problems caused by poor die design. These dies offer little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee dies as the crimp angle is already modified taper crimp.".  From Lee.

 re factory ammo measurements.  They have no idea what YOUR needs are and load to be a mediocre cartridge to supposedly fit all guns.

[DesertRatR]

re factory ammo measurements.  They have no idea what YOUR needs are and load to be a mediocre cartridge to supposedly fit all guns.

Just a thought to make sure I had a round that would fit, while I sneak up on the real OAL.

I spoke too soon in previous post. I've found dies, shell plate, ordered Starline, got everything I need except bullets. Tomorrow's search.

[Pistolet]

I wonder why they designed the 9mm with a tapered case.

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[painter]

Thanks all for the above. I like the OAL measurement procedure. BTW, what is wrong with measuring factory ammo to get OAL?

I can't find a taper crimp die anywhere. Everyone is out of stock for the Lee 90780. The only 9 mm dies I can find are RCBS. Reloading 9 mm may have to wait awhile.

As for brass I have learned to not pick up range brass. I only load Starline.

The only problem with measuring a factory load is, because of the CZ's short freebore, the bullet shape of the factory round would have to be almost identical to what you're going to load.

The best way to determine OAL with the bullet you want to load is described in the stickies.