Could use some help/advice on which bullet to use on the load chart, and...

[ropedrag]

Not new to reloading but 100% new to pistol reloading and would appreciate a bit of help. I tend to “overthink” so If you make it thought this and can offer advice it’s super appreciated! Also, my use is plinking and target shooting at the range with the goal of getting MUCH better with the pistol, trust me I've a ways to go!

So.... I went out and bought a new Shadow 2 Orange and why not, a new Scorpion EVO 3 S1 carbine as well (had to tell the wife it was for her)

Anyway, I’ve bullets from RMR! (learned about these here)

9mm 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets

And

9mm 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets)

I plunk tested both bullets in both barrels, and found the scorpion can handle .010 longer but I intend to load to the shorter COL of the Shadow 2 Orange and use for both guns. Reasonable, yes?

AFTER subtracting .015 from the plunk test length(s) I have

COL of 1.140 for the 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets)

And

COL of 1.090 for the 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets

Where I could use some additional help is matching up these bullets with powder load data. For powder I went a bit crazy and now have a bit more than my fair share of Alliant Sport Pistol and Vihtavuori 320, (both powders I've read great comments about here)

Allient…..https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlistprint.aspx?page=%2freloaders%2fpowderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=23

For my 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets) I’m thinking this would be closest to the load chart for “124 gr FMJ” with minimum OAL of 1.12” (that I’ll be loading to 1.14”). Sound correct? Charge weight listed at 4.5 gr so I’ll back off 10% and start at 3.9 gr

For my 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets… Yeah I’m not really sure which 124 gr bullets on their list is the best fit…??

Vihtavuori….. https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89

For my 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets) I’m thinking this would be closest to the load chart for “124 gr Lapua, FNJ-RN” with C.O.L. listed at 1.142” (that I’ll be loading to 1.14”). This seems to fit well. Starting weight at 3.4 gr and max at 4.0 gr

For my 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets. Again I’m unsure on this bullet, if I follow the C.O.L numbers it would push me towards the “125 gr Hornady HAP” listing a C.O.L at 1.102 (that I’ll be loading to 1.090 Starting weight at 3.2 gr and max at 3.9 gr


One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?

Thanks again!

[Bossgobbler]

From my load testing,  for the N320 3.8gn - 4.0gn will give you a nice target load.  For the Sport Pistol 3.8gn - 4.2gn will get you a nice target load.

[SoCal]

One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?

I have been at several matches where after the match I watched hand loads being chronoed in PCC's and the results showed much higher velocities then when shot out of a pistol (CZ SP-01 if I remember).   The explanation offered was that the longer barrel resulted in higher pressures and more velocity.  This is conjurer BUT I would be not extrapolate data from such different platforms. 

Just my cautious opinion.

[Bossgobbler]

The longer barrel of the PCC will produce higher velocity as you will benefit from the gas that is normally vented when you only have the 4" pistol barrel. The longer barrel will not produce higher pressure it will just make better use of the pressure curve.

[ropedrag]

One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?

I have been at several matches where after the match I watched hand loads being chronoed in PCC's and the results showed much higher velocities then when shot out of a pistol (CZ SP-01 if I remember).   The explanation offered was that the longer barrel resulted in higher pressures and more velocity.  This is conjurer BUT I would be not extrapolate data from such different platforms. 

Just my cautious opinion.

Sorry, I guess I didn't state that well. The chrono data I collect with the scorpion will not be used for looking at speed per se, I'll be looking for low Standard Deviation and low Extreme Spread numbers in 5 shot groups of each charge weight. Like I said I'm a newbe with pistol reloading but weighing my experience with rifle loads, typically in my experience the low SD & ES numbers = and accuracy node. I suspect in some ways the exact same round will retain some performance metrics when used in either the Shadow 2 or Scorpion. Without a way to chrono the pistol and the fact that I'm not good with a pistol to judge accuracy this method is the best I could think up.

[painter]

The SD, and ES, numbers from the Scorpion may or may not transfer to the pistol. Also, velocity is what tells us as reloaders if our loads are below, or above, max load. You won't be able to extrapolate that data from the Evo.Doesn't magnetospeed make a pistol mount for the rail?

Your load choices make sense, and are safe as long as you start at starting load.

[Bossgobbler]

Benchresting your Shadow2 with sandbags will help you with judging accuracy.  Accuracy in a pistol is a lot different then a rifle and ES/SD may not give you what you are looking for.  What is the barrel length of the Scorpion?

[noylj]

The thing is, one of the rules of reloading is to START with the START load and work up. Maybe only one or two rounds at the low end, but if is the safest way to go.
If your bullets are plated, they should normally be loaded as if they were lead bullets.

[ropedrag]

Thanks for the weigh in guys, much appreciated!

@painter, well I just checked and yes, yes they do... ordering now!

@bossgobbler, 16"

@noylj, I always start low 

Interesting that with all the rifle loads I've developed I look for pressure signs on the spent casing (primer dimple, etc.) or sticking bolt when the powder charge starts nearing published max. It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.

To share my findings.....After I sighted in the scorpion today and before I chrono'd my development loads I chrono'd some S&B 124gr FMJ RN which meaned out @ 1245 fps
With the Allient sport pistol the best charge weight was 4.4 gr with SD, ES and accuracy, it meaned out at 1198 fps
With VV N320 it was not good, a good SD of 6.3 and ES of 16 at 3.9 gr but accuracy was terrible. My ladder went up to 4.0 gr which meaned at 1076 fps. I'm going to ladder up at 4.1, .2, .3 and see if the accuracy doesn't come in. I suspect 4.3 will put me around 1160 fps

PS the stock trigger on the scorpion is a sad little thing. Heavy as hell and no feel for the break.

[painter]

The reason that we use velocity as an indicator of max load is that primers are not a particularly good indicator of pressure. By the time you actually see pressure signs you're well into the danger zone.

Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.

[Dan_69GTX]

Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.

WHAT?!?!  REALLY ?!?!?!   You need a better pistol!   In the mean time you can send your old one to me and I can verify it doesn't have a transducer! 


I agree with Painter that you need the info from a barrel length close to what was used for obtaining the numbers from the manufactures, so you should look into getting this for your pistol
https://magnetospeed.com/products/v3-rail-adapter

[Pistolet]

Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.

WHAT?!?!  REALLY ?!?!?!   You need a better pistol!   In the mean time you can send your old one to me and I can verify it doesn't have a transducer! 


I agree with Painter that you need the info from a barrel length close to what was used for obtaining the numbers from the manufactures, so you should look into getting this for your pistol
https://magnetospeed.com/products/v3-rail-adapter

That magnetospeed looks pretty cool, do you have one?

[ropedrag]

Thanks for the continued responses.

Just to give myself a bit of reassurance to run the VV N320 up to 4.3 gr in the scorpion with 16" barrel I visited the Ballistics by the inch website and cross referencing with the VV load chart (based on 4" barrel), speed projection wise it looks ok and I should have a decent bit of buffer as well. Suspect I'll find a delta in the neighborhood of 180 fps higher speed in the scorpion over the Shadow 2. So 1070 + 180 = 1250 for max load, and using my speed numbers increase for every 0.1 charge weight increase from my testing thus far + a bit of safety I'm projecting 4.3 to yield 1155 fps



@ Pistolet, yes I've had one for a few years, just ordered the rail attachment. Absolutely love it, and has been instrumental in my rifle load development. Note that I read on the MagentoSpeed sight that the rail attachment doesn't work with a number of CZ pistols, my shadow 2 being one of them, however I've read on a few forums that the fix/workaround is fairly easy... and safe.

[amada8]

I use a few shims under the pistol adapter when using my MagSpeed with a 75 compact (P-01)

[Wobbly]

It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.

You did read us wrong. The vast majority of shooters here care a lot more about accuracy.

And the one thing we've learned is that accuracy never happens at Max Load. It's usually in the 93 to 95% of Max Load range.