Projectile recommendations for a beginning handloader

[Bret]

• 115gr and 124/125gr only. No 147gr.  FMJ and Round Nose are highly preferred to start because they work well with stock dies.

Wobbly, would you please elaborate as to why you're recommending against 147gr.  I was going to recommend the Zero 147gr JHP because it has a rebated base.  This eliminates the need to bell the case mouths which in turn eliminates the need to taper crimp.  Are you concerned about the shorter CZ leade to the rifling?

[Philintheblanks]

Just getting ready to have my daughter order some bullets for me following as closely as possible the recommendations earlier in the post. Then it occurred to me that, although I've been steered away from lead bullets as unsuitable for a beginning handloader, I don't know why. Given that is the wisdom of the elders, I am satisfied that there must be good reasons. But what are the reasons? I do intend to use lead bullets in the future, but I'd like to understand what pitfalls I may face and why a particular material is (or could be) detrimental to someone beginning. Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences and insights!

Phil

[Wobbly]

Just getting ready to have my daughter order some bullets for me following as closely as possible the recommendations earlier in the post. Then it occurred to me that, although I've been steered away from lead bullets as unsuitable for a beginning handloader, I don't know why. Given that is the wisdom of the elders, I am satisfied that there must be good reasons. But what are the reasons?

Please read the Reloading Issues Related to Bullets stickie again.

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111500.msg804486#msg804486

[Dan_69GTX]

It is easy to scrape/damage the coating on the bullet - causing leading of the barrel and reduced accuracy.

That could be caused by incorrect "crimp", incorrect belling of the case, bullet not going in square to the case and scraping the edge, etc.

Also, coated bullets must fit the barrel better to prevent leading.  Do you want .356, .357 or .358?

I load a LOT of coated bullets now, but am glad I started with bullets with copper instead of coating.  That was based upon recommendation of this forum.

My goto for competition is still the Precision Delta 124 JHP.  I will not shoot coated in MY CZ Target II - always get leading in it due to the barrel needs .358 and that creates it's own issues.

Also don't want to shoot lead/coated in a gun with a ported barrel.

[Wobbly]

Wobbly, would you please elaborate as to why you're recommending against 147gr.  I was going to recommend the Zero 147gr JHP because it has a rebated base.  This eliminates the need to bell the case mouths which in turn eliminates the need to taper crimp.  Are you concerned about the shorter CZ leade to the rifling?

Please read the Reloading Issues Related to Bullets stickie again.

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111500.msg804486#msg804486

[Philintheblanks]

Just getting ready to have my daughter order some bullets for me following as closely as possible the recommendations earlier in the post. Then it occurred to me that, although I've been steered away from lead bullets as unsuitable for a beginning handloader, I don't know why. Given that is the wisdom of the elders, I am satisfied that there must be good reasons. But what are the reasons?

Please read the Reloading Issues Related to Bullets stickie again.

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111500.msg804486#msg804486

Aha! Thank you for the reminder, Wobbly. I had read it but had forgotten. Sometimes I think it's not easy being old and stupid. But it is worth the effort.

[Philintheblanks]

It is easy to scrape/damage the coating on the bullet - causing leading of the barrel and reduced accuracy.

That could be caused by incorrect "crimp", incorrect belling of the case, bullet not going in square to the case and scraping the edge, etc.

Also, coated bullets must fit the barrel better to prevent leading.  Do you want .356, .357 or .358?

I load a LOT of coated bullets now, but am glad I started with bullets with copper instead of coating.  That was based upon recommendation of this forum.

My goto for competition is still the Precision Delta 124 JHP.  I will not shoot coated in MY CZ Target II - always get leading in it due to the barrel needs .358 and that creates it's own issues.

Also don't want to shoot lead/coated in a gun with a ported barrel.

That makes sense. I'll start with .45 ACP, 230gn plated or fmj ball bullets, then progress to 9mm when I can find some small pistol primers. In both cases, I intend to slug the barrels to know for certain what the bore diameter is for each pistol.

[Bret]

Please read the Reloading Issues Related to Bullets stickie again.
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111500.msg804486#msg804486

Because it has a rebated base, the Zero 147gr JHP does not cause the case bulge problem detailed in the link.  I'll double check some of my loads in various CZ pistols to make sure that it clears the rifling.

[Wobbly]

Wobbly, would you please elaborate as to why you're recommending against 147gr.  I was going to recommend the Zero 147gr JHP because it has a rebated base.  This eliminates the need to bell the case mouths which in turn eliminates the need to taper crimp.  Are you concerned about the shorter CZ leade to the rifling?

Mr Bret -
First of all, I don't mind 147gr bullets at all. But as the article clearly states, I don't recommend them for the novice reloader. So please don't mis-quote me.

If you tell a novice 147gr bullets are OK, then there's no telling what he will order. The whole point of the Stickies is to guide those reloaders new to CZ, and longer 147gr bullets are a recurring stumbling point. Why would we not warn a novice reloader or a new-to-CZ reloader about these common pit falls ??

As the article says, and you correctly point out, it's about the short leade on CZ barrels. But it's EQUALLY about the interior of the brass. The internal taper starts at different points on different brands of brass. So you can get in trouble with the longer 147gr bullet OR you can get in just as much trouble with the wrong brand of brass. So a 147gr with a rebated base means absolutely nothing by itself. You'd need to fully describe the brass you intend to use it in.

This is true whenever you have a problem with a double variable. You need to check both variables before pronouncing an issue solved. In this case, you'd need to check your bullet with about 50 brands of brass to be sure. I don't know anyone with that much time or energy, so I simply warn beginners away from 147gr bullets.

This is all pretty well described in the article. I think it's very clear. I re-read it tonight just to make sure. Maybe I'm missing something. Please tell me what exact point is not clear to you. Or, if I've totally missed the mark, then I invite you to write your own article and we'll post that instead of mine. This is not about ownership or ego, this is only about posting the best information for the CZ community.

All the best. 


And BTW... I can't find the bullet you speak of on the Roze web site. Can you please provide a link ?

[Bret]

Wobbly, I didn't quote you.  I paraphrased your recommendation within the context of this discussion which is 9mm bullet recommendations for a new reloader.  As I pointed out, I wasn't going to make a broad recommendation, but rather a specific bullet recommendation based on removing two steps that are common points of frustration for new reloaders.  I can't say that I've used 50 different types of 9mm cases for making reloads with the Zero 147gr JHP's, but I'm confident in having loaded them in about 15 to 20 different types of cases.  Never once have a seen a case bulge caused by the bullet getting down to the thicker part of the case.

As for the issue with the short leade of CZ barrels, that potentially exists with virtually any bullet used.  If I'm going to shoot any reload in any CZ, I verify that the bullets are not touching the lands prior to completion.

Regarding the article, it's a good read, especially for a new reloader.  That said, I think that the recommendation to avoid 147gr bullets has assumptions that go along with it that don't apply to the particular bullet that I'd recommend.  I don't think that's a problem.  That's why a more detailed discussion is a good idea when applicable.


http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RZD&Product_Code=R147-A&Category_Code=ZBJ-9MM

 

[Dan_69GTX]

.....
This is true whenever you have a problem with a double variable.

double variables....sigh...kinda like
  double trouble
  double vision
  double digits
  double obstacle
  double trig
  double phase Robin problem with a Carathéodory nonlinearity
  Double Aneuploidy
  double integrator
  Double judgment
  double integrals
  .....
 
  Just not worth it! 

[Wobbly]

Wobbly, I didn't quote you.  I paraphrased your recommendation within the context of this discussion which is 9mm bullet recommendations for a new reloader. 

This is true. It is also true you incorrectly paraphrased the article.

As I pointed out, I wasn't going to make a broad recommendation, but rather a specific bullet recommendation based on removing two steps that are common points of frustration for new reloaders.

 
And the article go on with 2 recommendations for 147gr if you must have those. I don't say those are the only two 147gr bullets that work. I simply haven't tried the Zero, so I can't recommend them.

Regarding the article, it's a good read, especially for a new reloader.  That said, I think that the recommendation to avoid 147gr bullets has assumptions that go along with it that don't apply to the particular bullet that I'd recommend.  I don't think that's a problem.  That's why a more detailed discussion is a good idea when applicable.

Have at it. Write it up.

 

[Wobbly]

• 115gr and 124/125gr only. No 147gr. 

Phil -
OK, to get Bret happy, I'm going to modify my statement. You can use 147gr bullet... (there I said it) but only if...
1) You have previously used them successfully in a CZ chamber, or
2) If they are on a very short, incomplete, and non-existent list of acceptable 147gr bullets that works with every known brand of brass.

I don't care to compile that list as 147gr isn't one of my loves or even a minor concern. So until that list is compiled, and so you can be sure that the bullets you wait 14 weeks to receive will work, just don't order any 147gr bullets.

Hey, wait a minute !! We're right back where we started. 

[Dan_69GTX]

Hey, wait a minute !! We're right back where we started. 

Would that be a double circle?

[Philintheblanks]

• 115gr and 124/125gr only. No 147gr. 

Phil -
OK, to get Bret happy, I'm going to modify my statement. You can use 147gr bullet... (there I said it) but only if...
1) You have previously used them successfully in a CZ chamber, or
2) If they are on a very short, incomplete, and non-existent list of acceptable 147gr bullets that work with every know brand of brass.

I don't care to compile that list as 147gr isn't one of my loves or even a minor concern. So until that list is compiled, and you can be sure that the bullets you wait 14 weeks to receive will work, just don't order any 147gr bullets.

Hey, wait a minute !! We're right back where we started. 

Wobbly, I'm not back where I started, anyway. It seems that 124 and 115gr are most often recommended for 9mm in general, not just for beginners. So I'll stick with 124 to start. Yes, I will likely chase the perfect load for each of my pistols, but I'll be content with 'training wheels' until I learn how to reload. And by learning I mean hands on and shooting the results of a safe and careful process. To that end, I'll have my daughter order 1000 of the RMR 124 RN bullets with the understanding that it may be quite some time before they will ship. RMR appears to be the only company permitting backorders, at least of the vendors I've checked.