P-10c, JW optic cut, RMR, lower 1/4 co-witness, all black sights.. NOT SOLVED!!!

[gombey]

Finally figured out front/rear blacked out sights for lower 1/4 co-witness

Good deal! Happy you figured it out. I was just about to post the info I have.

Can you go ahead and post the info you were going to post a while back? Thanks!

CZ-P09/7 info. Can’t remember which is the front and rear. Last caveat the rear sight is a Glock sight. I’m going to place the rear sight in front of the optic:



https://dawsonprecision.com/

SKU: 019-581 .260 tall

SKU: 018-574 .305 tall

[PFran42]

Finally figured out front/rear blacked out sights for lower 1/4 co-witness

Good deal! Happy you figured it out. I was just about to post the info I have.

Can you go ahead and post the info you were going to post a while back? Thanks!

CZ-P09/7 info. Can’t remember which is the front and rear. Last caveat the rear sight is a Glock sight. I’m going to place the rear sight in front of the optic:



https://dawsonprecision.com/

SKU: 019-581 .260 tall

SKU: 018-574 .305 tall

Thanks!

[Hammer Time]

Don't know if you ever got this worked out, but honestly, the simplest solution is to not worry about co-witnessing. Get a set of suppressor-height sights that are just tall enough to be visible in your optic window, and then forget about them and zero your optic independently. The iron sights are just there in case your optic goes down, for some reason, otherwise they serve no purpose. 

[PFran42]

Don't know if you ever got this worked out, but honestly, the simplest solution is to not worry about co-witnessing. Get a set of suppressor-height sights that are just tall enough to be visible in your optic window, and then forget about them and zero your optic independently. The iron sights are just there in case your optic goes down, for some reason, otherwise they serve no purpose.

Huh??? Optic and BUIS are always zeroed independently.

BUIS are extremely important and consideration must be taken in order not to occlude the sight picture 99.9% of the time that you are using the RDS. The whole point of this exercise was to get a lower 1/4 co-witness (sights just tall enough to be visible in the optic window). I took another set of measurements using Mitutoyo calipers and ordered a .360" rear sight. I have a tall front installed now and will file it down until it prints well at 20 yards.

[Hammer Time]

Huh??? Optic and BUIS are always zeroed independently.

Yes, I know. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting - have your RDS and your BUIS zeroed independently. Co-witnessing, on the other hand, is not zeroing them independently - it's essentially zeroing your RDS to your sights (even if it's lower 1/4, 1/3, whatever), which is exactly what I'm recommending against. Your RDS should be zeroed regardless of whether it is in alignment with your sights or not. It may turn out to be aligned anyway once all is said and done, but not necessarily.

BUIS are extremely important and consideration must be taken in order not to occlude the sight picture 99.9% of the time that you are using the RDS. The whole point of this exercise was to get a lower 1/4 co-witness (sights just tall enough to be visible in the optic window). I took another set of measurements using Mitutoyo calipers and ordered a .360" rear sight. I have a tall front installed now and will file it down until it prints well at 20 yards.

Yes, of course BUIS are important, if this is a self-defense gun. I'm not at all suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that unless you have a very specific reason why you feel a need to co-witness your BUIS with your RDS (lower 1/4, lower 1/3, absolute - doesn't matter), it's generally not at all necessary on a pistol, and can actually be counter-productive, slowing down your sight acquisition, if that's important to you.

YMMV of course, but if you let go of thinking you need to co-witness, you'll have a much easier time solving your dilemma.

[PFran42]

Huh??? Optic and BUIS are always zeroed independently.

Yes, I know. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting - have your RDS and your BUIS zeroed independently. Co-witnessing, on the other hand, is not zeroing them independently - it's essentially zeroing your RDS to your sights (even if it's lower 1/4, 1/3, whatever), which is exactly what I'm recommending against. Your RDS should be zeroed regardless of whether it is in alignment with your sights or not. It may turn out to be aligned anyway once all is said and done, but not necessarily.

BUIS are extremely important and consideration must be taken in order not to occlude the sight picture 99.9% of the time that you are using the RDS. The whole point of this exercise was to get a lower 1/4 co-witness (sights just tall enough to be visible in the optic window). I took another set of measurements using Mitutoyo calipers and ordered a .360" rear sight. I have a tall front installed now and will file it down until it prints well at 20 yards.

Yes, of course BUIS are important, if this is a self-defense gun. I'm not at all suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that unless you have a very specific reason why you feel a need to co-witness your BUIS with your RDS (lower 1/4, lower 1/3, absolute - doesn't matter), it's generally not at all necessary on a pistol, and can actually be counter-productive, slowing down your sight acquisition, if that's important to you.

YMMV of course, but if you let go of thinking you need to co-witness, you'll have a much easier time solving your dilemma.

By "co-witnessing", I mean that if I look just at the iron sights, that sight picture will be near the very bottom of the RMR's window. I understand the "true" meaning of "co-witness" (I have multiple reflex optics on other platforms). I was using the term "co-witness" in the manner that it is tossed around on pistol forums.

My issue from the start, was that I could find no source online stating which height front/rear blacked out sights to purchase for a:
- P-10C
- Jagerwerks optics cut slide (.185" depth)
- Rear sight Glock dovetail cut behind RMR
- Trijicon RMR RM06 (w/ a .020" sealing plate attached)
- Lower 1/4 "co-witness"

I spent some time last week with a guy from Dawson Precision who had me take real-time caliper measurements on the slide and then recommended a Glock rear sight at .360". Even though we had exact measurements (including the sight radius), he would not recommend a front sight until I had put multiple groups on paper.

Since I already had a way-too-high front sight installed, I decided to start filling down the height, shooting groups and filling more as needed.

Never did I imagine that something as common as a Jagerwerks optics cut on a P-10C (with the rear iron sight being behind the optic) would result in multiple weeks of back and forth with multiple manufacturers, online gun forums, etc. I would have thought that many P-10C owners would have an RMR slapped on top of a P-10C with blacked out sights that were well zeroed and that did not stick out too far into the window presented by the RMR. Yet here we are...

[Hammer Time]

By "co-witnessing", I mean that if I look just at the iron sights, that sight picture will be near the very bottom of the RMR's window. I understand the "true" meaning of "co-witness" (I have multiple reflex optics on other platforms). I was using the term "co-witness" in the manner that it is tossed around on pistol forums.

Gotcha - I think we are talking about the same thing. Although I see "co-witnessing" thrown around on pistol forums all the time by people who think that true co-witnessing is required, so it's hard to know what someone is intending.

And while we are on the topic, I really wish that if CZ is offering both "OR" and "non-OR" versions of their P-10 series, that they at least put proper height sights on the OR versions!  Why do they sell an "OR" version of the P-10 that comes with same standard height sights as the non-OR version? Just venting, as I've been on a hunt to find proper sights for my new P-10S OR....

[PFran42]

By "co-witnessing", I mean that if I look just at the iron sights, that sight picture will be near the very bottom of the RMR's window. I understand the "true" meaning of "co-witness" (I have multiple reflex optics on other platforms). I was using the term "co-witness" in the manner that it is tossed around on pistol forums.

Gotcha - I think we are talking about the same thing. Although I see "co-witnessing" thrown around on pistol forums all the time by people who think that true co-witnessing is required, so it's hard to know what someone is intending.

And while we are on the topic, I really wish that if CZ is offering both "OR" and "non-OR" versions of their P-10 series, that they at least put proper height sights on the OR versions!  Why do they sell an "OR" version of the P-10 that comes with same standard height sights as the non-OR version? Just venting, as I've been on a hunt to find proper sights for my new P-10S OR....

...or design the optics cut-out so that standard height irons co-witness with whatever optics they are designed for. Glock plastic sights leave a lot to be desired but at least they still work after mounting a RMSc on a 43x MOS.

[MSteve]

And while we are on the topic, I really wish that if CZ is offering both "OR" and "non-OR" versions of their P-10 series, that they at least put proper height sights on the OR versions!  Why do they sell an "OR" version of the P-10 that comes with same standard height sights as the non-OR version? Just venting, as I've been on a hunt to find proper sights for my new P-10S OR....

My P-10F is an OR model. I put on a Holosun 507C V2 with an adapter plate from CHPWS. I'm able to use the factory sights. They're usable through the very bottom of the optics window. I blacked out the dots with a Sharpie.

[Hammer Time]

My P-10F is an OR model. I put on a Holosun 507C V2 with an adapter plate from CHPWS. I'm able to use the factory sights. They're usable through the very bottom of the optics window. I blacked out the dots with a Sharpie.

Good to know. I just put a Vortex Venom on my P-10S OR and the standard height sights are not tall enough. I ended up ordering an optics plate/tall sights kit for the DPP from CZ-USA and will just hang on to the plate in case I switch to a DPP at some point. And yeah, I'll be blacking out the dots on them as well.

[AZ_CZ]

Wow. Just read this thread from page 1, WOW, my head hurts. I’m a big CZ fan but when I switched to optics on my CCW pistol they let me down. I applaud everyone’s efforts and dedication. It wasn’t something I wanted to even attempt. All of this should have been addressed in the design and marketing of the P10 series. Buyers shouldn’t need to rely on aftermarket suppliers just to get a ‘basic’ optic pistol either off the shelf or retrofitted for a direct slide mount. I like my P10 but it’s a safe Queen and sits next to the PCR now that I switched to a Sig P-320 RXP.

[Hammer Time]

My only gripe with the P-10 OR offerings is the sights they currently come with, which are not "optics-ready" although they may work with some really low-profile optics options. Other than that, I still much prefer the P-10 to any other striker I've shot, and I've owned S&Ws, Sigs, HKs, Ruger. The VP9 would be a close second, although I still think the trigger on the P-10 is better, can easily be improved to be really good.

[PFran42]

Wow. Just read this thread from page 1, WOW, my head hurts. I’m a big CZ fan but when I switched to optics on my CCW pistol they let me down. I applaud everyone’s efforts and dedication. It wasn’t something I wanted to even attempt. All of this should have been addressed in the design and marketing of the P10 series. Buyers shouldn’t need to rely on aftermarket suppliers just to get a ‘basic’ optic pistol either off the shelf or retrofitted for a direct slide mount. I like my P10 but it’s a safe Queen and sits next to the PCR now that I switched to a Sig P-320 RXP.

This is par for the course in the gun game.

Wanna have some real fun? Get invested in Sig Sauer products... You get to be a never-ending beta tester. They make so many changes to their products (I'm looking at you P365), there is no true delineation between gens/versions.

Also...

1. Never start a "project" on a gun that you may have to rely upon (during the course of said project).
2. Always allocate at least 4x the amount of time you estimate the project will take.
3. Always allocate at least 4x the amount of money you estimate the project will cost.
4. Understand that any gun project can come to a screeching halt 0.00003% away from the finish line, and never progress beyond that point.

The saving grace of the P-10C is that it has a magical combination of reliability, accuracy, ergos and build quality. Because of the foundation you are provided with, if you are willing to dive deep, you can take that trigger to euphoric levels with $65 worth of a HBI trigger, a Dremel, a can of Flitz and an Amazon bulk pack of felt polishing attachments.

Nothing comes close to the trigger on this particular P-10c. All that is keeping me from closing out this build is a rear sight that (will be here tomorrow), a file, a fine grit sharpening stone, a couple range trips, a set of calipers and a phone call to Dawson Precision so that I can order a custom height front sight (should my final filed down front sight height measurement not align with a current Dawson Precision offering).

Since the start of this thread, I have purchased two additional P-10Cs so that I could pick and choose and combine certain features from each of them.

1. Started out with a P-10C Suppressor Ready (because that was all I could find online/at local FF).



2. I quickly sent the slide off to Jagerwerks for an optics cut and to be Cerakoted in their version of Coyote Brown.

3. Next, I found another P-10C...


4. ...and I swapped in a non-threaded barrel.


5. Then I finally found one in FDE and swapped frames.


Very close to the finish line...

[Hammer Time]

Very nice. ^

As soon as I get the suppressor height sights for my P-10S, get the RDS zeroed and get enough rounds through it to be comfortable with its dependability (something I have little concern about, but need to do anyway for peace of mind), I'll be sending the slide on my P-10C off to get milled for an optic as well. I've fallen in love with the P-10 more than I ever expected. 

[AZ_CZ]

Nice looking P10 PFran42. But this:

3. Always allocate at least 4x the amount of money you estimate the project will cost.

That was the dealbreaker for me. I ran the numbers and I would have had, at a minimum, more invested in a P10 build than a new Sig. For me pistols are tools. I’ll pay more if it’s worth it but sometimes a hammer is just a hammer. It doesn’t matter to me what the brand if it’s up to the task.