Author Topic: CZ P09 used in Police training  (Read 1055 times)

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Offline Claymore504

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CZ P09 used in Police training
« on: November 17, 2020, 12:26:02 PM »
Interesting video I found showing police being trained with the CZ P09 in an academy in Hungary from what I can tell. I find it odd that they train them to not carry with the handgun loaded... :o


Offline jwc007

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2020, 03:18:19 PM »
Israeli style carry doctrine.  Does seem to be a waste of the DA/SA Functionality of the P09.  They would be better off with a Striker Fired design, such as the P10F.
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Offline Psyop96

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CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2020, 04:44:59 PM »
It’s a different law enforcement scenario in some of these countries than what we generalize, for example, in the US. Low violent crime rates and restrictive gun ownership laws in Hungary. The average Rendorseg (national civil law enforcement under the interior ministry) police officer will likely not unholster his/her pistol much, if at all during duty hours for cause. Probably some admin decision/order in an attempt to decrease the chance of negligent discharge.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 06:38:45 PM by Psyop96 »

Offline dehughes

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2020, 05:25:25 PM »
That's difficult to watch, for obvious reasons. 

In many respects we have it pretty good in the US in terms of LE firearms training.

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2020, 06:21:51 PM »
Does seem to be a waste of the DA/SA Functionality of the P09.  They would be better off with a Striker Fired design, such as the P10F.

Yup, that's a head scratcher.

Then again, so is carrying without a round in the chamber in general, but that's a whole different topic...  ;)

Offline Yoni

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2020, 04:46:42 AM »
I would say in my travels, which is well over 70 countries as of now, most police in the world carry condition 3.

It has nothing to do with the Israeli methods. Most police don't have to deal with the street crime that American officers have too. Not saying they don't have dangerous places in some or most of the countries. Police will carry condition 3, until they go into a dangerous area, then they will chamber a round.

I think part of the reason they like a DA/SA pistol over striker fire is that they can use the down hammer as a signal that they have no bullet in the chamber.

Heck in one African country a lot of cops are using USPS police second hand Ruger revolvers and the cops carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer. Old single action revolver way to carry.

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2020, 08:48:56 AM »
I would say in my travels, which is well over 70 countries as of now, most police in the world carry condition 3.

It has nothing to do with the Israeli methods. Most police don't have to deal with the street crime that American officers have too. Not saying they don't have dangerous places in some or most of the countries. Police will carry condition 3, until they go into a dangerous area, then they will chamber a round.

I think part of the reason they like a DA/SA pistol over striker fire is that they can use the down hammer as a signal that they have no bullet in the chamber.

Heck in one African country a lot of cops are using USPS police second hand Ruger revolvers and the cops carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer. Old single action revolver way to carry.

I realize it's not an uncommon practice in other parts of the world. But.....why? Trying to be open minded, but I see no advantages to it.

Offline dehughes

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2020, 11:08:32 AM »
I’m with Hammer Time.  I don’t see any advantages.

Offline GMork

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2020, 03:12:41 PM »
Since the mid-1970s (the time of the first attacks and murders by the RAF), all police officers and detectives in Germany have always carried their pistols with one round in the chamber while on duty.  There are no efforts within the police to change that. 
For loading and unloading there is a box in each office in which the pistol must be held.
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Offline joedirt199

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2020, 10:30:08 AM »
Less desk pops in the office. Most depts have a bullet hole somewhere that was not intended to be there.
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Offline jwc007

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2020, 02:48:24 PM »
Less desk pops in the office. Most depts have a bullet hole somewhere that was not intended to be there.

I know of one in particular that has three Bullet Holes in the Floor.  ::)
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Offline Yoni

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2020, 06:25:10 AM »
I also see zero advantage to Condition 3 carry, as a matter of fact I see it as a huge negative.

I know too many people in a lot of different countries that carry condition 3 because they think it is safer. But the second they enter an area they think is more dangerous they jack a round into the chamber. Problem with this they haven't trained for this. This opens the door to potentially 2 different scenarios. First a ND, or second they will rack the slide again on seeing danger since they are used to Condition 3 carry. So they now have a live round on the floor of their car or on the ground.

Training is the answer.

Offline Claymore504

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2020, 08:29:21 AM »
I also see zero advantage to Condition 3 carry, as a matter of fact I see it as a huge negative.

I know too many people in a lot of different countries that carry condition 3 because they think it is safer. But the second they enter an area they think is more dangerous they jack a round into the chamber. Problem with this they haven't trained for this. This opens the door to potentially 2 different scenarios. First a ND, or second they will rack the slide again on seeing danger since they are used to Condition 3 carry. So they now have a live round on the floor of their car or on the ground.

Training is the answer.

I agree. For someone who does not have a great amount of handgun training, which many LEO do not, unless they take it upon themsevles to get quality training, I could see this being an issue. That would mean that when going into a situation that may be dangerous, they unholster and chamber a round. Do they de-cock at that point? If not then they have a nice light SA trigger pull on tap. Then once the situation is over, do they clear the handgun completely? This means they have ejected the round in the chamber and now they put that round back in the mag? Don't want to do that too many times as it may make that round dangerous to fire.

Point is the more they have to mess with the handgun the more chances of an ND. When I was in Iraq I saw many soldiers from other untis issued an M9 with little to no training except for a range qual. These soldiers had no previous expereince with the M9, or handgun is general. I watched a soldier clear his M9 at a clearing barrel at a FOB gate one time that had an ND. He unholstered, racked the slide, dropped the mag and then pulled the trigger and it went off. He had no idea why that had happened. If he had actually went through the clearing prcedure the correct way, they M9 never would have fired since he was carrying with a loaded mag and an empty chamber.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2020, 01:08:25 PM »
Actually a loaded mag and empty chamber will eventually end in a ND. Someone WILL not drop the mage first.  When people "KNOW" there is not a round in the chamber they WILL get sloppy.  When you KNOW you always have a round in the chamber, you handle the gun differently. 

Using the CZ for its design makes sense.   The so called Israeli method is not only inferior and can result in the BG winning, it is not even safe.  It will reinforce bad habits.

Offline timmy75

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Re: CZ P09 used in Police training
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2020, 02:24:11 PM »
In europe ordinary police units carry in condition 3. even if they use 75B. average joe LEO shoots about 10 rds of training every year, so police instructors think it is better for officers to carry in condtion 3 (minimizing NDs).
still, most NDs happened when people rack the slide before dropping the magazine.  :(
average LEO here will not draw gun from holster (in case of emergency)  for a whole career. even if someone is crazy and draw a pistol on police, they will take cover and call SWAT team.

here in Croatia 0,001% of population can have CCW. few years ago it was written in law if you have CCW permit, you must not carry one in the chamber.  :-\

 

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