Author Topic: New to the Forum; New to Reloading  (Read 5319 times)

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Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2021, 06:36:58 AM »

One of your comments was that you recommended a 133 PF to someone and they said no no no that is TOO stout.  To me that is closed minded unless he has experimented with it already. 


To clarify -- I wasn't referencing giving a direct PF recommendation of 133.  That was more about having recommended things, on different occasions, could be for a number of reasons, that take someone into that range, which is still very modest, or 132 or 135, or whatever, still modest, and received responses that in one way or another say that the recoil is too stout.  It has happened many times. 

I just wanted to get the new reloader with the drive to read and learn and offer the idea that lowest PF that was reasonable is NOT the holy grail before he read 100 times that it was.  ;)
[/quote]

IDescribe

I totally understood what you were saying in your original post.  I know you weren't recommending a direct PF. There is a balance of accuracy and PF.


Wobbly posted this: 

Quote
Since you are competing, you may be more interested in accuracy at 125 Power Factor.
What we do in this situation is find THE most accurate load, then use reduced force springs to tune the gun to the low power ammo. This usually has us tuning at about 130 PF and dropping back to a 14# or 12# recoil spring.

At times I'm not the best at relaying what's in my mind to paper/computer.

Thanks again for your input.[/font]
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 07:36:42 PM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2021, 09:22:48 AM »
The flood of information has my brain on fire and the firehose has flooded it.   8)


Can't help there, except to say stand back from the powder !

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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2021, 11:00:18 AM »
Dan -

I'm scanning the northerly sky for smoke this morning and don't see any, so that 'brain fire' can't be too bad.  ;D 
Time to throw on some gasoline !!

• So for the competitor, the 2 most significant areas are Final OAL and Taper Crimp. In 15 years of answering these questions, those are the 2 areas that repeat over and over. Sometimes with the same student ! Get those 2 things right and everything else pretty much falls into place. But also notice, those are both reloading press adjustments. So of all the adjustments on the 650 (which you said you wanted to understand), the die adjustments are the most critical.

• Sizing Die. Here you have 2 competing interests: length of sizing and carbide care. You want to size as much of any brass as you can. To do that you want the die to come as far down as possible. However, if the die slams into the shellplate you run the risk of breaking the very extremely fragile carbide ring that actually does the work. With no brass in the machine, lower the op lever till you hit the "stop". Now slowly lower the Sizing Die until you see the Tool Head start to rise. STOP ! Lock the die right there.

The 650 Tool Head has about 0.020" available up-and-down free play. So if you can see the Tool Head rise, then all the clearance is gone. However, you should ALSO be able to pull a sheet of paper out from between the bottom of the die and the shellholder at the top of the op lever stroke. That tiny clearance means the carbide ring isn't being hammered. This adjustment should take about 10 minutes.

• Powder Die. The important thing about this is that the height of the powder die sets the amount of belling. Obviously you want the minimum belling that still allows bullet seating. To work with this you'll need to run about 25 cases through the press and simply experiment. Note that due to variations in case length your belling will also vary. Therefore, you're looking for best average belling. This is the only adjustment I change because "best seating" will vary with different dia bullets.

• Seating Die. Dillon dies adjust OAL by moving the entire Seating Die up/down. This is a new adjustment made with every bullet change. So you don't want to lock the adjuster down hard. My answer is to place a fat o-ring under the lock nut. This allows adjustment by hand, but the setting is still solid enough that once set it doesn't ever change. Regardless of die brand, you can use this trick. (Lee and Hornady dies come with similar acting rubber shims.)


Dillon die with a fat o-ring taken from a Lee lock ring

• Taper Crimp. This is already covered in the Stickies. Nothing in competition will have you finish in last place faster than poor taper crimp. Pay attention !

• So basically, all the dies are set in relationship to the "stop" that the op lever hits at the bottom of the stroke. Some presses don't have a stop, and those presses are much harder to get right.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 08:29:24 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2021, 11:35:55 AM »
Me again.

Nothing affects your reloading results like the brass you use. Add these things to your process...

• Read THIS THREAD on brass to avoid. Strong magnets are your friend !!

• Before loading into the Case Feeder you must cull out steel cases, 380Auto cases, stepped cases... in short everything that doesn't belong. Once it's in the case feeder, it's really too late. This video remains the VERY BEST pre-case feeder inspection method. AND, it also counts the brass for you. No need to load 300 cases when you only load 100 primers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpkUnUqMo8U&t=117s

• For 2 BIG reasons, your loading will go so much smoother with case lube. Of the store bought varieties, I like Dillon Case Lube the best. Spritz twice from 3 feet away and go ! First of all, your OALs will be more consistent with outside lube. We've proved this. Secondly, Dillon case expanders will get stuck on the inside of the case. This is a known issue, and it is worse with super-clean, wet-tumbled brass. When you spritz from 3 feet, a small amount will land inside the case and prevent this issue.

However, Dillon Case Lube is nothing but alcohol and lanolin and there are numerous recipes on the web for making similar concoctions.

• Check all your finished ammo for case inaccuracies with a drop-in cartridge gauge. You only need to check the ones going to competition, skip the ones for practice. I like the single hole gauges from LE Wilson, but there are newer multi-hole gauges available. Choose your poison.


My dinosaur case gauge dating from the late Jurassic


Hope this helps.
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Offline tdogg

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2021, 11:47:03 AM »
I'll add that some of the die settings will change once the shell plate is full.  You will want to fine tune/ final set the dies when the shell plate is full and all the operations are happening with each pull.  You can get close with the settings individually but they may need some final tweaking once your operation is up and running.

I'd also recommend the RCBS Lock out Die since you have a five hole progressive (unless you are expanding and powder dropping separately).  As a newb starting on a progressive, the lock out die is an inexpensive backup fail safe for when things aren't running smoothly and you get distracted.  It will stop the press when a light charge or over charge is present (think gross errors like squib and double charges).  You should be looking into the case and verifying a normal looking powder charge before placing the bullet.  Crap happens and the lock out die will help keep your digits attached.

Finally I'd recommend a good press mounted light.  They are instrumental in getting good visibility into the case before placing the bullet.  There are options out there, I made my own.

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 01:20:09 PM by tdogg »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2021, 12:03:03 PM »
I'll add that some of the die settings will change once the shell plate is full.  You will want to fine tune/ final set the dies when the shell plate is full and all the operations are happening with each pull.  You can get close with the settings individually but they may need some final tweaking once your operation is up and running.

I'd also recommend the RCBS Lock out Die since you have a five hole progressive (unless you are expanding and powder dropping separately).  As a newb starting on a progressive, the lock out die is an inexpensive backup fail safe for when things aren't running smoothly.  It will stop the press when a light charge or over charge is present (think gross errors like squib and double charges).  You should be looking into the case and verifying a normal looking powder charge before placing the bullet.  Crap happens and the lock out die will help keep your digits attached.

Finally I'd recommend a good press mounted light.  They are instrumental in getting good visibility into the case before placing the bullet.  There are options out there, I made my own.

Cheers,
Toby

1) Excellent information. The best final adjustments are made during a production run when all the pieces are present.

2) This is a matter of personal taste. I take the simple approach and look inside each case, which is easy on a 650. Especially if you add a good light kit.


On a 650 the filled case is directly in front of the operator

3) The best light kit by far (and I've owned 2 or 3 brands) is the UFO kit from KMS Squared, available through Amazon.

Good stuff.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2021, 08:22:22 PM »
Dan -

I'm scanning the northerly sky for smoke this morning and don't see any, so that 'brain fire' can't be too bad.  ;D 
Time to throw on some gasoline !!

• So for the competitor, the 2 most significant areas are Final OAL and Taper Crimp. In 15 years of answering these questions, those are the 2 areas that repeat over and over. Sometimes with the same student ! Get those 2 things right and everything else pretty much falls into place. But also notice, those are both reloading press adjustments. So of all the adjustments on the 650 (which you said you wanted to understand), the die adjustments are the most critical.

• Sizing Die. Here you have 2 competing interests: length of sizing and carbide care. You want to size as much of any brass as you can. To do that you want the die to come as far down as possible. However, if the die slams into the shellplate you run the risk of breaking the very extremely fragile carbide ring that actually does the work. With no brass in the machine, lower the op lever till you hit the "stop". Now slowly lower the Sizing Die until you see the Tool Head start to rise. STOP ! Lock the die right there.

The 650 Tool Head has about 0.020" available up-and-down free play. So if you can see the Tool Head rise then all the clearance is gone. However, you should ALSO  be able to pull a sheet of paper out from between the bottom of the die and the shellholder at the top of the op lever stroke. So that type clearance means the carbide isn't being hammered. That should take about 10 minutes.

• Powder Die. The important thing about this is that the height of the powder die sets the amount of belling. Obviously you want the minimum belling that still allows bullet seating. To work with this you'll need to run about 25 cases through the press and simply experiment. Note that due to variations in case length your belling will also vary. Therefore, you're looking for best average belling. This is the only adjustment I change because "best seating" will vary with different dia bullets.

• Seating Die. Dillon dies adjust OAL by moving the entire Seating Die up/down. This is a new adjustment made with every bullet change. So you don't want to lock the adjuster down hard. My answer is to place a fat o-ring under the lock nut. This allows adjustment by hand, but the setting is still solid enough that once set it doesn't ever change. Regardless of die brand, you can use this trick.

• Taper Crimp. This is already covered in the Stickies. Nothing in competition will have you finish in last place faster than poor taper crimp. Pay attention !

• So basically, all the dies are set in relationship to the "stop" that the op lever hits at the bottom of the stroke. Some presses don't have a stop, and those presses are much harder to get right.

Thanks again Wobbly,

I'd prefer not to add gas to the fire since I just got it calmed down.   8)

Lot's of great information and I'll pay attention to the taper crimp stickie
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 03:58:12 PM by Wobbly »

Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2021, 08:28:49 PM »
Me again.

Nothing affects your reloading results like the brass you use. Add these things to your process...

• Read THIS THREAD on brass to avoid. Strong magnets are your friend !!

• Before loading into the Case Feeder you must cull out steel cases, 380Auto cases, stepped cases... in short everything that doesn't belong. Once it's in the case feeder, it's really too late. This video remains the VERY BEST pre-case feeder inspection method. AND, it also counts the brass for you. No need to load 300 cases when you only load 100 primers.

• For 2 BIG reasons, your loading will go so much smoother with case lube. Of the store bought varieties, I like Dillon Case Lube the best. Spritz twice from 3 feet away and go ! First of all, your OALs will be more consistent with outside lube. We've proved this. Secondly, Dillon case expanders will get stuck on the inside of the case. This is a known issue, and it is worse with super-clean, wet-tumbled brass. When you spritz from 3 feet, a small amount will land inside the case and prevent this issue.

However, Dillon Case Lube is nothing but alcohol and lanolin and there are numerous recipes on the web for making similar concoctions.

• Check all your finished ammo for case inaccuracies with a drop-in cartridge gauge. You only need to check the ones going to competition, skip the ones for practice. I like the single hole gauges from LE Wilson, but there are newer multi-hole gauges available. Choose your poison.

Hope this helps.


More great info.  Thanks
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 03:58:55 PM by Wobbly »

Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2021, 08:33:06 PM »
I'll add that some of the die settings will change once the shell plate is full.  You will want to fine tune/ final set the dies when the shell plate is full and all the operations are happening with each pull.  You can get close with the settings individually but they may need some final tweaking once your operation is up and running.

I'd also recommend the RCBS Lock out Die since you have a five hole progressive (unless you are expanding and powder dropping separately).  As a newb starting on a progressive, the lock out die is an inexpensive backup fail safe for when things aren't running smoothly and you get distracted.  It will stop the press when a light charge or over charge is present (think gross errors like squib and double charges).  You should be looking into the case and verifying a normal looking powder charge before placing the bullet.  Crap happens and the lock out die will help keep your digits attached.

Finally I'd recommend a good press mounted light.  They are instrumental in getting good visibility into the case before placing the bullet.  There are options out there, I made my own.



Cheers,
Toby

Thanks for the great info Toby.

I'm running a bullet feeder so the powder check I will perform visually.  Quality light is important so this will be a priority.

Dan

Offline nicky

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2021, 03:06:01 PM »
That UFO light is great.

Offline lewmed

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2021, 04:13:36 PM »
 Dan W it sounds like your reloading set up is much like mine my Dillon 650 and 750 both have Mr. Bullet feeders and UFO lights. I've been reloading for over 40 years and this set up almost feels like I'm cheating it's so fast and easy. I load for myself and two friends and my equipment has paid for it's self many times over. I hope you enjoy your hobby as much as I have keep your powder dry.

Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2021, 07:12:58 PM »
Finished decapping the remainder of my brass and cleaned and lubed the press.  Added the UFO lighting and man it works well.  The previous owner of the press had LED lighting but the UFO works much better. 

I have some Acme 125gr RN Coated that I did a push test with and came up with the following.  1 x 1.110, 2 x 1.111, 1 x 1.115 and 1 x 1.119. This is before the .010 - .015 deduct.   
My adjusted Max OAL = 1.095, 1.096, 1.100, 1.104 and less than the above Min OAL load data. 
I see load data with Min OAL at 1.110, 1.120, 1.130, 1.135, etc...
I tend to err on the side of caution and I'm not confident with my results.

I'll reread the posted info and see if I'm missing something. 

Offline painter

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2021, 06:17:32 AM »
It's good to be cautious, but I believe you're overthinking this just a bit. Test labs use even numbers for convenience, and lack of confusion.

You have repeatable results in your push test. Load at 1.095, start at the starting load for the powder and bullet you chose, and work up.
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2021, 09:16:26 AM »
Finished decapping the remainder of my brass and cleaned and lubed the press.  Added the UFO lighting and man it works well.  The previous owner of the press had LED lighting but the UFO works much better. 
So you're finally starting to believe us !  ;D

I have some Acme 125gr RN Coated that I did a push test with and came up with the following.  1 x 1.110, 2 x 1.111, 1 x 1.115 and 1 x 1.119. This is before the .010 - .015 deduct.   
My adjusted Max OAL = 1.095, 1.096, 1.100, 1.104 and less than the above Min OAL load data. 
I see load data with Min OAL at 1.110, 1.120, 1.130, 1.135, etc...
I tend to err on the side of caution and I'm not confident with my results.

• It sounds like your Push Test results came up in the area of ~1.112", which we can simply round off to 1.110" for the sake of ease. Do you see any scape makes on the ogive, or indications of where it might be contacting ?

• I also have the Acme 125gr RN and came up with 1.135" in my SP01, before subtracting. I'm loading mine at 1.120". The Acme RN is a very slender ogive, so you might want to verify your numbers again.

• Use your shortest Load Data and begin loading 5 each at the Starting Load. Remember we're ultimately looking for accuracy. When you find an accurate load, then you can get the correct springs to throw the case about 6 ft. At that point you can go back with more test rounds for more detail. Let's just say 5.6gr shows the most promise in the first test. In the second test you can go back with 10-12 each at 5.5gr, 5.6gr and 5.7gr and pick up more detail. In that test you can also verify minimum velocity and function.

• It's deep cold in South Dakota right now. Beware of using any grease on the gun slide. That will adversely affect your spring selection.

• You should finish up with a confirmed OAL, "best" load, and verified spring rate.

I'll reread the posted info and see if I'm missing something.
You forgot to tell everyone thank you:)
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Offline Dan W

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Re: New to the Forum; New to Reloading
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2021, 12:33:36 PM »
Let me start with a big THANK YOU to all the members that have shared their information with me.   :D

I really do appreciate everyones input.

Yes Wobbly I do believe!!!   8)

• It sounds like your Push Test results came up in the area of ~1.112", which we can simply round off to 1.110" for the sake of ease. Do you see any scape makes on the ogive, or indications of where it might be contacting ?
I do not see any scrape marks on the ogive and no indications of contact.

I've been having a hard time fitting bullets into the fired brass so I added a slight bell to the mouth so I can achieve a more consistent bullet fit.  My results became more consistent.  Acme 125gr RN came in closer to 1.135 +/-.005

My slides are currently oiled not greased.  I use grease in the summer.

Again,  Thanks to All