Author Topic: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix  (Read 11987 times)

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Offline newageroman

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2021, 10:49:48 PM »
Just for clarification. I think the shim on the bushing is a good idea, I think modding any sear/trigger is not a good idea (in CZs)..
I've never heard of anyone shimming the bushing on a stock 97.
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Offline florida man

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2021, 11:24:04 PM »
Ouch!.........Seems like a lot of naysayers that pray at the altar of the aftermarket parts gods.  Once I get this pistol tuned up, I will give you the results of groups shot with and without the bushing shim.  Fair enough?.......... Amazing how some folks extrapolate their failures and short comings onto others.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 04:45:01 AM »
Ouch!.........Seems like a lot of naysayers that pray at the altar of the aftermarket parts gods.  Once I get this pistol tuned up, I will give you the results of groups shot with and without the bushing shim.  Fair enough?.......... Amazing how some folks extrapolate their failures and short comings onto others.

It's amazing how some people never believe the fire is hot and simply have to find out for themselves. No one says what you plan can't be done we simply know from EXPERIENCE that  even when things turn out just like you hoped the gun lives a short life in the reliability department and they can become downright unsafe.
Yes you go ahead and report back on how it all comes together but more importantly report back when the gun has fired 10,000-20,000 rounds safely without a modified part failure.
I wonder if you'll be honest enough to report back if things fail to come together initially or if there's a failure down the road?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 04:52:43 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Joe L

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 05:05:42 AM »
Ouch!.........Seems like a lot of naysayers that pray at the altar of the aftermarket parts gods. 

We pray at the altar of firearm safety.  Some of us have strayed, unknowingly.  We repented and are now back at the altar, separated from stone and file, with credit card in hand, we assemble safe pistols. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Steve Menegon

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 06:45:46 AM »
Florida Man, these members offer great advice based on collective experience. I think it is prudent to incorporate their advice. That being said, there is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box. As has been said, nothing much to be gained by tightening up the bushing to slide if barrel is "80's pornstar loose" (too funny) in the bushing. Measure the two and see what you have. Perhaps buy a few bushings and check clearances. Use tightest one.

The hammer, I'd take it to a precision machine shop and find out hardness and depth if you are fortunate to find one who is willing to check it and has the equipment to do so. If the surface hardening is deep enough, you should be good to go. The depth of surface hardening is from time and temperature. If not, invest in the parts that are. There is no safe way to know without testing. By the time you run around finding a shop and pay them, invest your time to change the hammer hooks, you'll most likely be beyond the cost of buying one ready to roll. Like SVPP said, the CGW kits are the way to go and personally I did the same.

Good luck and be safe. The 97 is an awesome piece!

Offline newageroman

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 09:58:46 AM »
I do see a potential advantage of that tighter bushing in terms of reliability.
I was shooting some hot rounds in the 97 last year and on the first shot the bushing come out of time and got jammed. I couldn't unjam it and had to send it back to CZ. They fixed it but it is still a tad loose.

I was still moderately new to the gun (about 2k rounds down), so it is possible that I didn't have the bushing lined up properly, but I'm 98% that wasn't the case. If I shim it to be tighter more assurance it wont move or will force the owner to line it up properly. I've had another ~k down since then and no prob.
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DJK11

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2021, 06:02:57 PM »
I did the shim/washer under the bushing as well as trying some Teflon tape on the threads.  I didn’t notice any difference so I stopped screwing with it.  Almost all the slop was in the loose threads, seamed to be cut undersize.

So to help stimulate the economy, I sent it to CGW for the bushing mod.  Just received it back.  Looks great and thankfully not as tight a slide/bushing fit as others i’ve seen.  I’ll launch a few next week.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 07:06:30 AM by DJK11 »

Offline newageroman

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2021, 11:56:45 AM »
good to note, I will look at the thread for slop, if that is the case I may just leave it.

When you did the E bushing, can you make an "appointment" per say, to get in line but keep your pistol until they actually NEED it. Minimizing time where it is out of my hands? I think that is the #1 reason I haven't done this yet.

Hope they "send" well!
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Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2021, 04:25:29 PM »
good to note, I will look at the thread for slop, if that is the case I may just leave it.

When you did the E bushing, can you make an "appointment" per say, to get in line but keep your pistol until they actually NEED it. Minimizing time where it is out of my hands? I think that is the #1 reason I haven't done this yet.

Hope they "send" well!
When I had mine done I got on a list and they notified  me when they were ready for it. They do them in batches so that makes sense. I don't remember how long they had it, but it wasn't long. Maybe a couple weeks.

DJK11

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2021, 06:46:55 AM »
The CGW bushing mod on mine took about five weeks door to door.  I’ve had it back for two weeks now but have not shot it.  The suspense is kicking me, can’t sleep.

The slide/bushing fit is not too tight or too loose.  A wrench is needed.  Barrel fit seems perfect.

Offline florida man

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2021, 03:57:22 PM »
Test results are in!  After 10 fouling shots, I shot 10 groups of 5 shots each.  Five groups with no bushing shim, then five groups with the shim installed.  Test was shot at 25 yards rested with Holosun 2 moa dot sight.  Load was 200 gr. lswc, Fed brass, Win primers, and VV N310 powder.  COL is 1.250.

Average of groups shot without shim were 1.65 "  Some would have been a bit tighter, but there was a pattern of vertical stringing that opened things up.  Still, not too shabby for a stock pistol.
Average of groups shot with the bushing shim installed were .88" with all groups well centered with no flyers.  Best group was .75 with four into one hole.
I would say that this experiment was successful in MY GUN!  As I mentioned before, my barrel to bushing fit was very good, perhaps above average.  All of the slop on my gun was in the bushing to slide fit.  Will others get the same result?  I cannot say........your mileage may vary.  This pistol will hold inside the X-ring on a B 8 target now no problemo!  I was also real happy to see that this load that I have shot forever in my 1911's functions perfectly in the Cz.

I was waiting to be hammered with data from the metallurgy "experts" regarding the process that Cz uses to heat treat and harden their parts...............nothing but crickets.  Hardly surprising, but no biggie.  I have the luxury of being able to drop by the shop of a family member that is an accomplished bladesmith.  Heat treating and tempering steel is right in his wheelhouse.  Now I could give you a brief tutorial on how to heat treat and re-temper small steel parts in your kitchen(me being a ham-handed kitchen gunsmith and all), but someone would burn their house down, and I would get tagged for it.  Why open that can of worms!

Time for me to go back to lurker mode.  If you don't mind wading through some nonsense, there is actually some good info on this forum.  A tip of my cap to the poster that had the idea to use a piece of drill rod to tighten up the frame to sear cage fit while doing double duty in retaining the hammer pivot pin........Very Clever!........American ingenuity at its finest!

It's also time for the "hero" trolls to scuttle back under their bridge and resume their circle jerk, while planning the ambush of the next newbie that has an idea or offers up an opinion that flies in the face of their unassailable dogma..............Florida man ..............OUT!

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2021, 06:09:26 PM »
So you had your modified parts re-heat treated? That's exactly the point we were trying to make in regards to modifying the oem hammer and sear. Funny, I don’t recall you mentioning having someone to do that for you, how convenient. You really showed us.
This isn't just a place for skilled hobbyists and gunsmiths, it's a place for everyone that enjoys CZ's. So when someone like you shows up and claims to have discovered some amazing new mod, some of us are skeptical. Why, because this forum is a reference for newbies as well, and if they don't get the whole story, bad things can happen. Sorry you didn't receive the love and adoration your ego requires. Perhaps you will find it wherever else you've been "lurking".

Offline Joe L

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2021, 07:12:04 PM »
Test results are in!  After 10 fouling shots, I shot 10 groups of 5 shots each.  Five groups with no bushing shim, then five groups with the shim installed.  Test was shot at 25 yards rested with Holosun 2 moa dot sight.  Load was 200 gr. lswc, Fed brass, Win primers, and VV N310 powder.  COL is 1.250.

Average of groups shot without shim were 1.65 "  Some would have been a bit tighter, but there was a pattern of vertical stringing that opened things up.  Still, not too shabby for a stock pistol.
Average of groups shot with the bushing shim installed were .88" with all groups well centered with no flyers.  Best group was .75 with four into one hole.
I would say that this experiment was successful in MY GUN!  As I mentioned before, my barrel to bushing fit was very good, perhaps above average.  All of the slop on my gun was in the bushing to slide fit. 

That's a great result, thanks for posting your results. 
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2021, 07:36:35 PM »
Well you had a whole week to refine that rant but words are worth exactly what they are worth. Show proof of these claims otherwise that's all they are just claims. But hey maybe in some alter world this is reality.
I once shot a bullseye from a mirror sighting the pistol off my shoulder at 250 yds with a J frame revolver. I custom cast the highly refined trigger boiling it with a pot of spaghetti on my stove. I cast the bullets from super hardened chocolate chips. They were delicious and accurate.
Seriously though if you could give us a tutorial on anything I think you would and you would if you could but you can't so you won't unless you go study up on such things. Obviously you thought everyone would fawn over your ideas as most people do these days employing no critical thinking only accepting the farcebook or tweeter opinion. We love helping people here and we are always open to new ideas but we also know these pistols pretty well and we have learned what works in the short and the long term.
I hope your pistol performs just like you want it too but most importantly I hope you and your pistol perform safely.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 07:45:00 PM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline florida man

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Re: Cz 97 sloppy barrel bushing fix
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2021, 02:41:16 PM »
A trigger boiled in spaghetti and chocolate chip bullets?????  Aren't you the venomous one.  If you read my first post, all I offered up was an inexpensive and reversible solution to a common complaint about the fitment of the CZ 97 barrel bushing.  I also commented on how awful the trigger pull was on this particular pistol.  Nothing was said in that post about modifying the hammer and sear.  Immediately, the boobirds and naysayers came out of the woodwork.  Once again, the warnings about part hardness and such that I have heard for years were rolled out again.  When I asked how about providing data info and specifics, you trolls had nothing!  That's because you really know nothing specific about this subject.  I certainly was not looking for a Nobel prize in gunsmithing for my bushing shim suggestion.  Just thought I would pass along an idea that was worth a shot at trying.  No more, no less.  It is pretty obvious that this forum is run by a bunch of old trolls that are nothing but cheerleaders and shills for the aftermarket vendors that support this forum.

While we are on the subject of barrel bushings:  Has anyone ever replaced the barrel bushing on a CZ 75 pre-b pistol?  These are the early ones with the miniscule staked on front sight.  This subject has been brought up, but no one seems to know much about this.  I have seen some misinformation posted.  Perhaps I can shed some light on this subject.  I mentioned earlier that I had an early Action Arms import that while a big step up from the Tanfo's that I had experience with, was still somewhat loosey goosey in the tolerance dept.  After I tightened up the sear cage to frame fit and modified the hammer to my liking, I wondered what could be done to address that sloppy barrel bushing.  Action Arms had no small parts available, but I did get a tip that there was a gunsmith in Canada that worked with Pragotrade and had access to lots of CZ factory parts.  His name was Tim Luckhart.  I contacted him and sure enough barrel bushings were available.  I purchased a pair of these on 3-04-94(I am reading from my original parts invoice).  He listed them as cz oversize barrel bushing, but they actually have an undersized ID and must be reamed to fit your barrel.  My original barrel had an OD of .502.  My remaining barrel bushing has an ID of .475.  So you see, they must be reamed for a good fit.  Here is the installation procedure.......yo parrabelly boy, sit up and pay attention 'cause school is now in session:

The oem bushing has threads that screw into the slide.  You must remove the front sight to start(more about the front sight in a bit).  Put your slide in a padded vise with the barrel out and the muzzle up.  You then use a large EZ out to simply uncrew the bushing in a counterclockwise direction.  Mine came out easy peazy, but on guns that are pushing 30+ years old, one might want to soak the end of the slide in some Kroil or some other penetrating oil for a while before twisting the bushing out.  The new bushing is machined extra long with two slots at the end to enable a tool to gain purchase of the bushing.  You could use a large screwdriver, but I made a tool from a bolt and nut to evenly torque it down.  Start it by hand and be sure not to crossthread the bushing.  Once it is torqued down to the face of the slide, all that remains is to trim it down to length.  I filed it down at first, then finished it with a 90 degree crown cutter to get it where I wanted it.  All that remains is to ream the bushing to fit your barrel.  This made a big improvement in accuracy in this pistol.  As I have no plans to rehab another old CZ 75, I am thinking about putting this one bushing on Gunbroker for someone else's project.  This is not really a tutorial, but I am thinking this may help fill in the blanks on these pre-b pistols.  By the way, the part # for this replacement bushing is PFAP10191.  I do not think they are still available, but you never know!