Perfect home defense weapon

[RSR]

Nowadays, most shotguns used by LE SWAT are for breaching, especially if they're pistol grip short barrels.  It's a secondary weapon, not primary. 

Yes, shotguns have less spread than most realize -- BUT standard 00 buck is like a 9 round burst from the .32 acp Skorpion vz61.

And yes, recoil-induced flinching/loss of confidence is detrimental to accuracy/precision through both fear-induced bad habits and a reluctance to practice. 

Because of the 1033 program, most LE SWAT have now abandoned their 1980 and 1990 subguns for M4geries. 

If you're clearing a room in a manner in which someone inside the room can grab the barrel you're doing it wrong.

Only when you need a free hand is a pistol ideal -- like say grabbing a child's hand to lead them to safety.  But even then, you'd be well served with a slinged rifle tightened into your body on your person.

Re:

And remember too. Shooting thru walls isn't as bad and dangerous as folks make it sound online. In fact you'll find scenarios where it's to your benefit to poke holes in walls to reach the threat just behind the corner. And that's where 300 blackout and calibers like those shine a bit. I'd much rather do that.. than have to step around it and confront them head on. Firing thru sheetrock etc is very effective.. granted u have identified the threat properly tho. And the way I'd do it is to take a knee and fire in a semi vertical fashion to direct the fire above neighbors houses as you do. And the added punch of rifle rounds etc will also help ensure you are effective against modern intruders with body armor. Just some things I've seen discussed in talks like these that are not discussed much. But this is also why I have several guns. One for each type of scenario I can possible make an excuse to buy a caliber for basically lol. Not saying anyone is wrong. But all types have thier places I guess is what I'm saying. And I'm not saying blast ya walls up either.

Life isn't a video game, and every round you fire you must be in fear for your life and to ensure no collateral damage need every round to go into your target to minimize chance of you going to prison for killing someone who could be argued was fleeing/retreating and any accidental injuries or death.

[RSR]

5) have full capacity magazines allowing you to engage up to 3-5 delinquents without needing to reload

Bro…didn’t you get the memo?! California and other intelligent, like-minded states say we shouldn’t need more than 10 rounds. Geez, get with the times. 

Being in a restricted state is a whole other ballgame/thought process...  For instance, that's why during the Clinton AWB that .45 acp guns became so popular -- if limited to 10 rounds, you want to maximize lethality within that artificial constraint. 

For a rifle I'd be looking to increase precision and caliber and ensure reliability if limited to 10 rounds, which would likely mean 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 creedmoor, or greater. 
And if semi-auto platform was taken away, I'd probably look to a lever gun in .357 magnum and .44 spl in that order -- I'm the biggest person in my household, but everyone needs to be able to use whatever weapon is our go to...

[Das Hugh!]

When they're in my house. If they're not audibly saying I give up. And I can hear them reloading etc and are just being a wall. And have already showed they mean harm. Then yes. In my "scenario".. I can legally burn down my house to rid it of the threat if I wanted. But if I'm sure he's there yes u can absolutely use force. Each scenario varies. If I was running a daycare then yeah absolutely play it out the long way or whatever.  But it's just me here. And I'm not rescuing anyone. No hero stuff. So especially if I'm alone and have a house of cinder blocks.. and no neighbors for miles. I can rain hell from all angles. If I'm in a RV and have people closeby.. I will do that accordingly and yes never shoot the one. But I won't play hokey pokey with anyone when they themselves adhere to no rules. But I find it crazy to rule out shooting thru a barrier if you know u can do so safely and know its the enemy.  I clearly said. I don't mean go blowing ya walls up. I was stating actual methods they train people with. I suggest every person think ahead of what they can and can't do well before the time they need to do things. And be aware of all things they can't do. But as a private citizen I don't owe anyone a certain etiquette of any thing and don't promise any type of special professional conduct when they come into my home to do harm to me or my family. And I'll use any method at my disposal to do so. Frying pans. Clothes hangers. It's all on once u slow deadly intent lol. But yes if you're a professional there's procedures. I'm not. But I'll get the job done by any means at my disposal.

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[RSR]

Shooting cinder block compromises its structural integrity.

Do you really have something folks are willing to get into an extended gunfight for?  Or do you really have enemies who are willing to suffer casualties to do you harm?

And how do you see through walls to know where along the wall your opponent(s) might be?  How is your scenario not this: "don't mean go blowing ya walls up"?

The law applies to citizens just like LEO.

Ultimately, you do you.  But I think "shoot through walls" is terrible and negligent advice to be giving to another stranger on the interwebs for home defense -- which all your apparent, but clear as mud, caveats appear to acknowledge.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Well this thread is devolving into nonsense and non logic. I'd suggest Das HUGH you consult an attorney with your ideas/scenarios before god forbid you do something that gets you locked away. I don't know where you are that you think you could ever set your home on fire to squelch an intruder but I'm positive there's no place in the USA that would be tolerated. Such a foolish act puts the safety and lives at risk of those who have to come after the fact and clean up your mess and you'd certainly be charged for such an act.
I've always gotten a kick out of reading these "perfect scenario" statements from people who think they have the gunfight all figured out before (and hopefully never) it happens. I think at best if any of us are involved in such a situation it will be what you least expect (never what you thought} and just hope the good guy comes out on top.

[Das Hugh!]

Here we go. I agree this went sideways to the point where it's now being said I literally and saying shoot thru concrete now Jesus. Yall protect yalls as ya see fit. And I'll do mine. I simply said u can.. and people train.. to shoot theu barriers if needed. And immediately it goes sideways with folks and thier theories of self protection chivalrous etiquette.  There is none folks. But like I said there ways to do so if that time comes.  If u have a thin sheetrock wall.. and u can see the shooter in your house feet hanging out and he's reloading as he's making bad mom jokes about ya and u know it's a clear and safe shot.. Yes. Blow his butt away.  In no way did I imply you randomly start blasting ya walls. Jesus people. Cars are also barriers. They shoot thru them all the time. There's times where larger calibers are needed.

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[double-d]

Well this thread is devolving into nonsense

Yep and everyone has an opinion on what is best for the "other guy".  Take three-four different professional training classes and get three-four different teachings on what is best.

I am not an expert but am quite comfortable with my home defense plans/tools despite what others may espouse.  What will work for me in conus may not for my abode outside conus for example, that is where my common sense kicks in.   I tend to leave all the forum specialists and u-tuber experts to teach someone else. 

just my humble two cents.....

[MeatAxe]

Interesting that a 9mm pistol, a 5.56 carbine and a 12 ga. shotgun w/ 00 buckshot penetrate about the same number of Sheetrock walls, which is multiple. Considering muzzle blast and handling, I think I’d take a 9mm pistol or, better yet, a 9mm carbine for an inside self defense weapon.
 

[Das Hugh!]

There's some nasty new 9mm rounds too. So much so it's hard to justify other calibers. I've been curious about the liberty civil defense rounds. They seem to do all you need then some. Anyone try those yet? I've seen footage of thier penetration tests vs vests and they do that and still do tons to gel behind it. Pretty amazing if it's true.. especially considering thier hollowpoints. Can't find them on shelves so I'll have to order them.  But wondering about experiences with the brand before ordering any.

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[Gunnerdad80]

I got rid of all my 40 cal stuff a few years ago and kept all my 9mm. Now it’s majority 9mm then a moderate amount of 300 black, .380, 22wmr, and 22lr.

Anyone try that pricey 9mm RIP ammo? I’m curious if anyone has had any feeding issues with it.

[CZ_FANATIC]

I got rid of all my 40 cal stuff a few years ago and kept all my 9mm. Now it’s majority 9mm then a moderate amount of 300 black, .380, 22wmr, and 22lr.

Anyone try that pricey 9mm RIP ammo? I’m curious if anyone has had any feeding issues with it.

RIP ammo is gimmicky junk. My carry choice is Underwood Extreme Defenders.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I've not run into any reliability issues with the common defensive ammo out there. I simply pick defensive ammo for each gun based on accuracy since SHOT PLACEMENT is more important than any other hype or fancy bullet style they're pushing. A couple guns have HST and my CZ's group best with Critical Duty.

[RSR]

Interesting that a 9mm pistol, a 5.56 carbine and a 12 ga. shotgun w/ 00 buckshot penetrate about the same number of Sheetrock walls, which is multiple. Considering muzzle blast and handling, I think I’d take a 9mm pistol or, better yet, a 9mm carbine for an inside self defense weapon.

Note that 5.56 is FMJ and out of an 11" barrel, 9mm is relatively standard poly tip self defense, and 00 buck was out of a 28" barrel. 

For 5.56 in particular, FMJ for an indoors home defense situation out of an SBR is extremely ill-advised.  And 00 buck out of 28" will be higher velocity so greater deformation/flattening for less penetration (just like occurs w/ most pistol rounds -- excessive velocities = less penetration but more expansion/fragmentation).

Without a suppressor, I agree PCCs have a lot going for them.  However, PCCs are generally less reliable than centerfire rifle caliber weapon systems -- and vs 5.56 more recoil if straight blowback.

I think "home defense" is poorly defined here as well -- exclusively w/in structure?; to property line?; on acreage or city lot or even apartment with no dedicated private land/yard to "home"?, etc? 

[RSR]

RIP ammo is gimmicky junk. My carry choice is Underwood Extreme Defenders.

IIRC, RIP sheds petals VERY early, and then you're left with the base that's equivalent to a light .380 insofar as penetration.

I get Underwood in .380 and .32 acp where otherwise largely ball or inadequate HP penetration, but don't get it in 9mm or greater due to significant potential for over-penetration. 

9mm -- Federal HST if modern gun with compatible feedramp for wide hollowpoints, or federal classic 9bp/9bple if older guns since they reliably load like ball ammo in most older weapons/early wondernines.
To be fair, I do own and have in some mags currently loaded with Federal Critical DUTY, not DEFENSE, but nearly all of that I purchased before Federal HST was released.  See more detriments in Duty than HST for my needs (sacrificing expansion and energy delivery for add'l penetration) -- my selection for current rotation was largely between Speer Gold Dot (Gen 1) and Hornady CD when I stocked what I'm rotation through now best as I can recall.  Not really a Winchester ammo fan, which had Ranger as the only contemporary bullet worth consideration best as I recall -- don't even remember Hornady XTP being a finalist option...  IIRC, thought it close enough to "budget" Federal 9bp/9bple that I also on hand that it wasn't worthy buying...

[Das Hugh!]

Yeah the liberty offerings are super light projectiles and I think solid core.  And like double speeds if I recall correctly. Pretty eager to try some and see what it does. When I get some I'll write back and share. I don't have a chrono or anything but wanted some input on reliability issues if any have been reported. Currently carry black talon. And haven't bought any new stuff since the pandemic hit and things went nuts on prices. I'm sure the talon is plenty fine. But that liberty is looking good so far on demos.

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