Author Topic: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?  (Read 4167 times)

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Offline Joe L

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Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« on: July 07, 2021, 03:20:09 PM »
I've been to the range 3 days in a row this week, the first two with the P-10 pistols and today, finally, with the CGW 97B"E", my bullseye match pistol.  I've about given up on bullseye matches in my area so I have been shooting the pistol at 100 yards only for the last year or so.  Today I decided to zero the Burris red dot at 100 yards instead of leaving the gun set for a 25 yard zero and then having to use an aim point above the target.  I started out at 6 clicks up and then added 2 more clicks after 10 shots on target 1.  That looked close enough so I put up target 2, shot 2 more five shot groups before adding one click right on the sight for the last 5 shots.  I caught it all on video, then edited out the dead time between shots so I could get the whole 15 shots in to a 2 minute video.  Here is the result...

https://youtu.be/j1NK4yngCsg

To say I'm happy with this result is an understatement.  I am ecstatic.  The big heavy .45 is so pleasant to shoot and so well behaved that I really just don't have any excuse for the one bad shot in the video.  It was me, after reverting back to my simple wrist rest consisting of a 4x4 with a box of ammo and a shop towel on top.  This setup has a little stickiness to it that sometimes lets the gun jump just slightly just before the gun goes off.  I've put the broom rest aside for now. 

This is fun.  This is not easy.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Dan Wesson

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2021, 03:43:44 PM »
I've been to the range 3 days in a row this week, the first two with the P-10 pistols and today, finally, with the CGW 97B"E", my bullseye match pistol.  I've about given up on bullseye matches in my area so I have been shooting the pistol at 100 yards only for the last year or so.  Today I decided to zero the Burris red dot at 100 yards instead of leaving the gun set for a 25 yard zero and then having to use an aim point above the target.  I started out at 6 clicks up and then added 2 more clicks after 10 shots on target 1.  That looked close enough so I put up target 2, shot 2 more five shot groups before adding one click right on the sight for the last 5 shots.  I caught it all on video, then edited out the dead time between shots so I could get the whole 15 shots in to a 2 minute video.  Here is the result...

https://youtu.be/j1NK4yngCsg

To say I'm happy with this result is an understatement.  I am ecstatic.  The big heavy .45 is so pleasant to shoot and so well behaved that I really just don't have any excuse for the one bad shot in the video.  It was me, after reverting back to my simple wrist rest consisting of a 4x4 with a box of ammo and a shop towel on top.  This setup has a little stickiness to it that sometimes lets the gun jump just slightly just before the gun goes off.  I've put the broom rest aside for now. 

This is fun.  This is not easy.

Joe

FINE shooting!  Looks like the CGW upgrade works!

Offline Fuzzy Sights

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 04:59:03 PM »
JoeL,

Amazing shooting.  Took my CZ 75B converted to 357 SIG out a couple of weeks ago with 3 different loads.  Started at 50 yds and the first group showed some great promise with a sub 3 inch group.  Other loads were not as accurate and off the target.  Will continue the experiment after my next set of matches.

You are right, this is fun and very much not easy. Plus people look at you like you are crazy.

JW
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Think of me as a Newbee who types a lot.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2021, 05:01:46 PM »
Fuzzy Sights==Your comment about people look at us like we are crazy applies even to the rifle shooters at the 100 yard rifle range, when I am shooting my pistols.  That is part of the fun. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline SEAKPhotog

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2021, 02:12:06 PM »
Nice shooting!  I'll have to try my non E at 100 yards next time I head out to the range.  Now I'm curious.

Offline sevt_chevelle

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2021, 11:08:11 PM »
Didn't need to watch the video, my 97 runs circles around both my DW 1911s and that P220, it's not even in the same league.

Am not a recycled thrash bag fan but the new P10 in 45 does have my interest.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2021, 09:21:41 AM »
Am not a recycled thrash bag fan but the new P10 in 45 does have my interest.
The polymer guns have always surprised me as far as accuracy goes.  When I first got my P-09, I couldn't believe it was that good mechanically.  I think it is a testament to the modern CNC tools and computer controls allowing CZ to tighten up the tolerances enough so that every production gun is as tight as only a custom match pistol could be say 20 years ago. 

It may be coincidence, but the best 20 rounds on one target from a pistol I've ever shot were from a 3.5" P-10S subcompact with a red dot.  No one expected that.  I've shot under 4" at 100 yards with every polymer gun I have, and that includes P-09, P-07, P-10F, P-10C, P-10S.  None of my pistols are unique or special or hand picked.  I would think a P-10 in .45 would be a safe investment!!

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Lock-n-load

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2021, 09:19:04 PM »
Nice shooting! That is a must have mod for your 97!

Offline florida man

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 12:31:32 PM »
That is some amazing shooting especially since your rest was only a towel on top of a cartridge box.  I had a couple of observations.  You stated you went up 8 clicks on your red dot to get on target at 100 yards from your initial 25 yard zero.  On a Burris Fastfire, that would be 8".  A 185 gr. JHP with a muzzle velocity of 800 fps will be down 9.3" at 75 yards and down 19.7" at 100 yards.  Unless you are shooting magic bullets that defy the laws of gravity past 75 yards, I'm pretty sure that your target was set up at no more than 75 yards, probably a bit less.  You did state on a previous thread that your 185 gr. loads clock 830 fps.  The extra 30 fps would not be a factor in this case.

I also noticed that your pistol still appears to be sporting its oem hammer.  I seem to remember reading that the only way to get a quality trigger pull on a Cz 97 was to buy one.  You must have been one of the few lucky ones to get a good pull on your gun, since mine was gritty, creepy and heavy.  I managed to "tweak" things a bit and now have a clean break at 3 lbs 4ozs.  I managed to knock off a bit over 2 lbs. on the single action pull.  Only spring changes were a 16 lb. hammer spring and a reduced power trigger return spring.  For you 97 fans that are contemplating a change to your hammer spring, I found that I have good primer hits on Win primers and 100% reliability using the stock firing pin return spring.  I believe there is no need to get a lighter firing pin spring with the 16 lb. hammer spring from CZ Custom.  If you are shooting loads with CCI primers with those hard primer cups, this may not apply.  I only post info that works on MY GUN!

Offline Joe L

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 01:03:19 PM »
Theoretically, the Burris FF3 clicks are 1 moa.  In practice, they are a bit more, somewhere between 1 and 2 moa.  Also, I'm at 6000 feet altitude, thin air, so the drop here is a little less than at sea level.  The lead catcher is fixed in concrete at 100 yards from the fixed shooting bench.  The distance is 100 yards.  I don't regularly use a chronograph, but I remember using one once a few years ago and the velocity was 830 fps per that fellow's chronograph.  That number may not be accurate.  All that counts is where the holes are and what adjustment it takes to get to where I want them, so that I can go back to something close if I ever want to go back to a 25 yard zero.

My CGW hammer had too crisp of a break and was a little too light for me.  Several years ago I went back to the stock hammer with a CGW sear and it has been near perfect for how I want it for bullseye and for long range.  A lot of folks want something lighter and crisper, and that's fine with me.  Heck, I even like the P-10 striker triggers with a CGW striker and a Glock 4# spring. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2021, 02:36:04 PM »
Florida Man--My 25 yard standing single hand zero is different than my two handed seated wrist rest 25 yard zero due to the recoil response.  In other words, there are several differences here that make it impossible for me to extrapolate accurately from a 25 yard single hand standing zero at near sea level to a 100 yard seated two handed wrist rest zero at 6000 feet above sea level.  For the first target, which is not included in the video posted here, I put up a big fresh sheet of paper in the lead catcher and used the first target to see where the bullets hit before making any changes. 

If I say the target is at 100 or 200 yards from the shooter position, that is where it is, period.  Don't ever imply otherwise, as you did above, perhaps unintentionally.  At a minimum, I've lasered the distance, sometimes tape measured it.  Back calculating a target distance based on the number of clicks up on a small inexpensive consumer grade pistol sight is just plain wrong, and I would hope you give up on that approach.   

But, even though you made some bad assumptions and came to some erroneous conclusions, I appreciate your interest.  Be very careful out there while at the shooting range ... and when typing. 
Works for me.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline florida man

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2021, 04:07:07 PM »
My conclusions were based on the info you provided, the published specs for a Burris Fastfire, and page 707 from my Nosler #4 reloading manual regarding ballistics.  If your sight actually has 2 moa adjustments, I would send it back to Burris and have them check it out.  That coarse of an elevation adjustment is not suitable for precision pistol shooting IMHO.

As to your claim of the effect of altitude........ We are not talking about high power rifle at 1000 yards where altitude or more importantly, barometric pressure, does become a factor when dialing in your hold.  We are talking about a bullet with a ballistic coefficient of .142, traveling less than 900 FPS, and only going 100 yards.  “Thin air” is a NON FACTOR.........lol!

Offline Joe L

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2021, 04:45:08 PM »
I give up.  Otherwise, this isn't going to end well. 
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Grendel

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 05:53:40 PM »
Florida man, how about you take your 97 and scope and replicate Joe L's shots at 6000 feet of altitude, then come back and tell us how you did and what you observed. Until you do, I don't want to see another peep out of you in this thread.

Not.
One.
Word.

You are starting to irritate me and it would not end well for you to ignore this warning.
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Offline BarkingAnt

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Re: Want to see what a CGW "E" modification is good for?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2021, 11:01:11 AM »
Sorry to come in late on this but this piqued my interest. Just to say there is a big difference between 40 years of experience doing something and learning it and reading it in a book.
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