"Wet Primers"

[wv109323]

 In another post, I read that some rounds that failed to ignite was speculated to have been caused by "moisture in the case". The reloader had wet tumbled his brass and the failure to ignite the powder by the primer was" Moisture in the case"
I reckon this all depends on how much "moisture" was in the case but unless there was a noticeable amount I don't know if I would buy into this theory.
So what are your thoughts? Will an unnoticeable amount of moisture de-activate a primer? If loaded will a damp primer ever dry out? If the bullet is pulled can you determine there is/was moisture in the case?
Just curious.
I know priming compound is applied to primers in a wet slurry. How does the manufacturer ensure that the primer is "dry" before shipping?

[double-d]

There is a saying......keep your powder dry

[tdogg]

I'm by no means and expert on the process for making primers but there is an active community on MeWe that goes deep into the chemistry and process for making them.  The final step is to wet out the compound that activates it and and you have to seat the anvil while wet.  Once it drys the compound is impact sensitive.  Ensuring it dry's completely is important to unsure the primer will go bang.

I assume the commercial process is the same but just on a much larger scale.  They probably just dry them through ovens whether it is continuous (conveyer belt style) or batch (trays loaded in and out). 

I'm not sure if you wet out a factory primer then dry it again if the compound will still be impact sensitive?  I also don't know how much moisture is too much to deactivate the primer?

I think in general moisture in the case while loading is not good.  I don't think it will ever dry out (or it will take a long time in ambient conditions) for a loaded cartridge to dry.  The good thing is most of the residual moisture is in the spent primer and that gets ejected during loading.  Best practice is to ensure your cases have ample drying time after wet tumbling to eliminate the concern (and/or decap them prior to tumbling).  I purchased a Frankford Arsenal case dryer (dehydrator type) to dry my cases and 3D printer filament.  Works well and I haven't had any ringers (primer head separation during decap) or duds during ignition (knock on wood!).

Cheers,
Toby

[lewmed]

 My friend that has been an avid reloader for over 20 years had switched to wet tumbling  was drying his wet cases outdoors in the sun without removing the primers first and had several squibs with his 9mm. He hadn't changed anything in his loading process except for the way he cleaned his brass so he asked me to help figure out what was the cause of the issue. I pulled about 25 bullets from the last batch he had reloaded the powder charge looked fine so I then fired the primed empty cases in one of my 9mm pistols 4 of the 25 didn't go bang it was more like a fizzle then a pop. The primers he was using were Fiocchi and were from the same lot that I've been using for over a year with no problems.
 I'm the one that made the diagnosis of the moisture in the case or primer pocket he is now depriming his brass before wet tumbling and drying them in a food dehydrator and using primers and powder from the same lot as before with no more problems. I'm no authority on reloading but I've been doing it for over 45 years and had a 06 FFL for about 20 of those years and have loaded millions of rounds I'll stand buy my diagnosis and you have the right to question it.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

If you have ANY moisture in your cases before loading and you fail to properly dry them then that moisture will be sealed in the case when you load your rounds and once loaded the bullet and the primer seal that moisture in the case for eternity since once sealed no air can flow and allow drying. Chances are you just loaded a potential and probable squib or outright dud.
Keep EVERYTHING in your loading process clean, cool and dry.

[Wobbly]

In another post, I read that some rounds that failed to ignite was speculated to have been caused by "moisture in the case". The reloader had wet tumbled his brass and the failure to ignite the powder by the primer was" Moisture in the case". I reckon this all depends on how much "moisture" was in the case but unless there was a noticeable amount I don't know if I would buy into this theory.

There's "wet tumbling" and then there's "wet tumbling". You're asking us questions, but you haven't given us enough information. Allow me to clarify.

When I first started wet tumbling several cases slipped through the de-capping process and got wet tumbled with the old primer still in place. Understand that I dry all my brass with a hot air process covered here many times before, and the brass is stirred and jostled several times during this process. Each and every case is too hot to hold when the process finishes. In theory that should "cook off" any water.

Days later, when these cases with the old primer still in place were sized and decapped in my progressive press, a droplet of blackened water came shooting out with the spent primer. It made a big mess in my press. I pulled the case and looked at the primer pocket and there was still water in the pocket.

The information missing from your question is this: Did the person try to short-cut the wet tumbling process by NOT pre-decapping the brass? I've read of many reloaders that think the extra decapping step is an aggravation, and they don't do it. From my experience I can tell you that short of leaving the brass outside in the Arizona sun for a month, once you allow water into the primer pocket... it's pretty much there to stay.

As to whether water will kill primers, you don't need to ask us. You need to place a drop of water into 5 primers, seat and load them. Wait 24 hours and then go fire those 5 rounds. I think you'll answer your own question.


All the best.

[wv109323]

Wobbly- A couple of questions about your process.
Did the case with the discovered water in primer pocket go through the heated procedure you describe or was the procedure put in place after you found water in the case?
How long did the cases sit after being heated and what were the conditions/temperature before loading?
I am guilty of wet tumbling with primers in. I have noticed that it takes more time and heat to drive the water out than one would think necessary. I usually allow two days in the sun to consider them dry. I take a glass jar and seal it with clean brass inside. I set it in the sun. If there is condensation in the sealed jar I leave the brass in the sun longer. I also place the clean brass on a dark colored cloth. It makes a big difference in the temp. the brass will get in the sun.
 But I have had a couple of 9mm and .38 Spec. that did not go bang. Both were with Winchester primers. The 9MM was wet tumbled but the .38 Spec were not. I was blaming the primers
 I am just trying to better my ammunition and not overlook anything. I have loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds for the.45 ACP and not had a problem both wet and dry tumbled.
 Would you think the 9MM would be harder to dry out than a .45 case? I think I will begin baking my 9MM in a toaster oven to avoid problems in the future.

[tdogg]

I wet tumble with primers, no stainless pins, and dry with a brass dryer.  I've loaded thousands and processed 10's of thousands of cases this way without issue (knock on wood).  Your mileage may vary but there is more than one way to do this process.

I do live in the high desert of Arizona.  I have had ringers with old primers corroding in place but not since I started using the dehydrator drying.  I think this is the key, make sure your drying the brass well.  The dehydrator dryer works well and does it quickly.

Cheers,
Toby

[Wobbly]

Wobbly- A couple of questions about your process. Did the case with the discovered water in primer pocket go through the heated procedure you describe or was the procedure put in place after you found water in the case? How long did the cases sit after being heated and what were the conditions/temperature before loading?

Yes. All my brass is thoroughly heated and tumbled/ agitated during the process. I dry inside my dry basement shop which is temp (and thereby humidity) controlled, so my brass doesn't typically see the wild humidity swings we can have in GA.

I use a hair dryer setup, documented here before. I'm typically working with 1000 to 1500 pieces of brass at a time. The brass can sit for a month or more in the dry basement before being loaded. Rarely is it loaded on the same day as tumbling.

I am guilty of wet tumbling with primers in. I have noticed that it takes more time and heat to drive the water out than one would think necessary. I usually allow two days in the sun to consider them dry. I take a glass jar and seal it with clean brass inside. I set it in the sun. If there is condensation in the sealed jar I leave the brass in the sun longer. I also place the clean brass on a dark colored cloth. It makes a big difference in the temp. the brass will get in the sun. But I have had a couple of 9mm and .38 Spec. that did not go bang. Both were with Winchester primers. The 9MM was wet tumbled but the .38 Spec were not. I was blaming the primers. I am just trying to better my ammunition and not overlook anything. I have loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds for the.45 ACP and not had a problem both wet and dry tumbled. Would you think the 9MM would be harder to dry out than a .45 case? I think I will begin baking my 9MM in a toaster oven to avoid problems in the future.

• I use an XL650 with a case feeder. I have a special tool head with a Universal Decapping Die and all the brass goes through the decapping process before being washed. I like the UDD because I can use the same process on 32ACP, 38Spcl, 357M, or 9mm fast and consistently.

• Drying is a matter of Time and Heat. You don't want to go too high on the temp for fear of changing the metal properties of the brass, but you DO want to bring the brass up to the same temp (130°F ??) to promote thorough drying. Then, some form of a 'wait period' has to be utilized to allow the remaining water to "cook off". My basement is dry, but my home's locale is not. (Indoor mold and mildew is one of our biggest issues with GA homes.) So using the sun or outdoor air is not an option for me.

• I do my drying on a 1/4" mesh sieve. The sieve has no mass, but those using 'cookie baking sheets' (or similar) need to allow extra time to simply heat the cookie sheet !! An extra additional amount of time would be required if the case stood on its head on the cookie sheet. The combined mass of the sheet and case head, PLUS the inability of air to freely move through the primer pocket in this position could create a problem. This is why I highly prefer the sieve, with hot air passing over, around and through the cases. There is no way the primer pocket is sealed off to hot air flow with a sieve. But here again, this is all driven by my locale... which never sees humidity levels below 60%.

https://www.amazon.com/SE-GP2-14-Patented-Stackable-Sifting/dp/B008B0T5Z2/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=1%2F4+sieve&qid=1628340871&sr=8-3

• Heating time is a function of mass. 45ACP cases would take longer to heat to the same temp as 9mm due to the added mass of the case. I don't do much rifle, but I'd expect even longer heating periods for bottleneck cases. I try to get all the brass to the same temp, combined with at least 3 agitations, and then leave them resting for a day in a dry place (usually still sitting in the sieve).


My process isn't perfect, but it generally works well in my environment. In GA, even the weatherman can't count on next Saturday (for instance) being dry. That day could fall in the middle of 3 days of thunder storms. So heating and drying is really just a matter of common sense, mixed with equal parts of experimentation.

Hope this helps.

[wv109323]

 I just got an email from Winchester that answered one of my question. They stated that once a primer has been wet it is deactivate even if dried out. I thought possibly that since they are made in a slurry that if re-dried they would be active. They will not according to Winchester.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I just got an email from Winchester that answered one of my question. They stated that once a primer has been wet it is deactivate even if dried out. I thought possibly that since they are made in a slurry that if re-dried they would be active. They will not according to Winchester.

Yes this is generally common knowledge among hand loaders and firearm enthusiasts as well. The same goes for powder. Once it's wet it's over. Anyone who would consider attempting to use a component such as powder or primers they know have been contaminated is just asking for trouble.

[DJK11]

Out of curiosity I’ve dropped a couple of my hand loads in a glass of water overnight, then went to the range.  They all went bang.  I’ve done this a number of times without a failure to ignite.  NO I’m not crimping the hell out of the case.  I was surprised the dozen or so went bang.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Out of curiosity I’ve dropped a couple of my hand loads in a glass of water overnight, then went to the range.  They all went bang.  I’ve done this a number of times without a failure to ignite.  NO I’m not crimping the hell out of the case.  I was surprised the dozen or so went bang.

Sure because ammunition assembled from clean snug fitting components won't take on water. That's not the same as primers or powder that was contaminated prior to loading.

[DJK11]

Didn’t say it was. 

[mauserand9mm]

Out of curiosity I’ve dropped a couple of my hand loads in a glass of water overnight, then went to the range.  They all went bang.  I’ve done this a number of times without a failure to ignite.  NO I’m not crimping the hell out of the case.  I was surprised the dozen or so went bang.

They can be hard to kill. I tried to drown out some primers with WD40 for the purposes of testing I was doing (involved the effects of the firing pin impact on the case length/headspace - long story). I left the loose primers submerged (not very deep though) in some WD40 for a few hours. I then loaded them into some cases. 1/2 went bang, 1/4 went bang but subdued and the rest had been drowned effectively.