Small pistol primer substitution in 5.56/.223?

[steerclr]

Haven't posted in a while but decided to start gathering up the .223/5.56 brass and can't find small rifle primers.  However, I have plenty of small pistol primers.  I'm sure someone has asked this before but after  a quick search of this section I wasn't able to find it. 

So what are the pros and cons for using small pistol primers in this cartridge?  Just plinking rounds, not for hyper accuracy.

Thanks all.

[Das Hugh!]

I don't reload yet. But I do plan to soon and have alot to learn ahead of me I'm certain lol. Anyways I did see this discussion once I think. But they discussed a lesser known reason as to why they use a thicker primer on AR's. And that's cause it has a unique free floating firing pin. And each time u slingshot it to load it. The pin will slam the round a tiny bit each time on the primer. They thickened the metal on the primers a bit to compensate for that. And is why I try to rotate the top round each time I reload one. Just a heads up on that aspect. The rest of it I'm unsure of and others can add to what ya can and can't do as far as the other details. I know I've seen mention of using rifle primers in pistol ammo too. And if folks have lightened springs for easier trigger pulls etc they will encounter alot of soft strikes. Just a few bits of info I've happened to see mentioned on the topic. Again I'm not a reloader tho so take it for what it's worth lol. But I try to pay attention along the way so I learn more for when I do finally start

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[david s]

As mentioned small pistol primers have thinner cups. That is done because hand guns generally have lighter hammer strikes than rifles. So the primers are more sensitive. The CCI number 41 small rifle primers were designed for AR rifles to be less sensitive to the AR's firing pin moving forward and lightly striking the primer during cycling. I've used small pistol primers in the 22 Hornet but this cartridge doesn't generate the same pressures as the 223/5.56. I'm not sure what a small pistol primers maximum pressure is rated at but I believe it's less than a small rifle primer. I think it would be a bad idea.

[steerclr]

Great feedback.  That's why I really like this forum.

[tdogg]

I'm fixing to test out some fed small pistol magnum in my AR Arc.   At least cci claims their small pistol magnum primers are identical to the small rifle variants.  Can't say the same for fed though.   I'll try and see what happens.   Worst case I use them up loading 40 competition loads.  Best case I've got more primers for the arc.

The cup thickness is part of the equation but there is also the amount of primer compound and brisance of the burn.

Cheers,
Toby

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[david s]

Smith and Wesson revolver spring kit manufacturers tend to recommend Federal primers when you use the reduced power springs.

[Das Hugh!]

And BTW. One way to prevent dimeling on primers in AR's.. especially when experimenting with more sensitive pistols primers maybe. Is to slowly close the bolt as far as it will allow and then use the forward assist to finish driving it home into battery. That way the pin never dings them. Just another thing I've seen made mention before

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[Earl Keese]

Post some ads for trade. I bet there's some guys out there that would love to trade rifle primers for pistol primers right now.

[Wobbly]

The cup thickness is part of the equation but there is also the amount of primer compound and brisance of the burn.

God I love it when you use those big words. 

Unlike the "Large" variety of primers, the "Small" are the exact same external dimensions. Unfortunately, as others have already said, you can use the rifle primers in your pistols, but due to the immense chamber pressures in rifles, not the other way around.

[M1A4ME]

I've swapped SR primers into some pistol loads once.  Testing the M&Ps when going through some failure to fire issues.  I just wanted to see if the P07 would light off SR primers (it did, round after round).  Another nail in the M&P coffin at the time.

I've swapped magnum small pistol primers into .300 BO reloads one time.  The .300 BO loads I was making showed pistol like pressures in the reloading manual.  I thought, Why not?  pistol pressures in a low volume rifle case, I'll give it a try.  Used H110 and 150 grain bullets.  With H110 I had enough pressure to get holes in the primers of some of the rounds fired and yet did not have enough gas port pressure to reliably operate the bolt.  Got ejection with every round but some failed to move the bolt back far enough to pick up the next round.  '

I know, chamber pressure doesn't equal gas port pressure.  But the thing is the holes in the primers.  Didn't get those with small rifle primers in the cases.

Just one example, in my limited experience.

[George16]

What brand of small pistol primers do you have and intend to use? Keep in mind, primers have different levels of hardness. CCI is the hardest while federal is the softest.

With that said, you can use small pistol primers on .223/5.56. It all depends on which brand of small pistol primers you’re going to use. CCI being the hardest among my stock of primers. The cups are hard enough to also withstand the force of the firing pin hitting the primers.

[steerclr]

Box says - CCI Small Pistol Primers No. 500

If that tells you anything.  Thanks for everyone's input!

[tdogg]

The cup thickness is part of the equation but there is also the amount of primer compound and brisance of the burn.

God I love it when you use those big words. 

I'm not an internal combustion ballistician but I did stay at a holiday inn once.

Cheers,
Toby

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[M1A4ME]

Forgot to mention, I think the pistol primers I used were Remington small pistol primers in the .300 BO loads.

[George16]

Got this info from another forum.

PRIMER CHART & REFERENCE GUIDE

Small Handgun Standard .017" cup thickness

CCI 500
Federal 100 - Has a soft cup - good to use if hammer strike is light.
Federal 100M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SP
Magtech PR-SPC - Lead-free "Clean Range" primer for indoor ranges etc. 
Remington 1 ½
RWS 4031
Winchester WSP
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol SP #KVB-9 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9SP - "For 9×19 NATO cartridges"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9S - "For Sporting Pistol loads"

Small Handgun Magnum .017" cup thickness

CCI 550  See Note 1 at the bottom of page 
Federal 200
Federal 200M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SPM
Remington 5 ½
RWS 4047
Winchester WSPM
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol Magnum SPM #KVB-9M - brass cup - "For Magnum Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Standard .020" cup thickness

CCI 300
Federal 150 - Has a thinner cup
Magtech PR-LP
Remington 2 ½
RWS 5337
Winchester WLP
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol LP #KVB-45 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Magnum .020" cup thickness

CCI 350
Federal 155
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol Magnum LPM #KVB-45M - brass cup - For Magnum Pistol loads

Small Rifle Standard

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer.  Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.  See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.   
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm.  .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far) 
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds.  Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer.  Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard.  Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup.  Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021".  Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup.  Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds. 

Small Rifle Magnum

CCI 450 - same thicker .025" cup as the BR4 and #41.
CCI #41 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.  With this primer there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup than with other CCI SR primers.  .025" thick cup.  Same primer mix as CCI 450.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer.  Hornady, Handloads.com, and Chuck Hawks classify this primer as a Magnum, differing from other sources that classify it as a Standard. .025" cup thickness. 
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle Magnum SRM - hard, less sensitive brass cup intended for AR15/military rifle and high pressure rounds - #KV?-5,56M.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle 223 SR223 - #KVB-223M "This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite."

Large Rifle Standard

CCI 200 - mild in brisance.  Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
CCI BR2 - same as the 200 but the match version.  Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210 - medium brisance between CCI/Remington & Winchester.  Do not use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210M - match version of the above primer.  Do not use in semi-automatics.
Magtech PR-LR
Remington 9 ½ - mild in brisance.
RWS 5341   
Winchester WLR - the hottest standard primer.  Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle LR #KVB-7 - all brass - "For Standard Rifle loads".
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle #KVB-7,62 - "For 7,62 NATO cartridges"

Wolf/Tula primers are used by noted match shooter David Tubbs who says: "Be sure they are seated into the case - if not they can be hard to ignite. Russian primers use a different sinoxide compound (closer to the European type), which, in my testing, consistently delivers better extreme spreads over Federal..."  Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.

Large Rifle Magnum

CCI 250
CCI #34 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Federal 215 - original magnum primer
Remington 9 ½ M - mildest magnum primer.
RWS 5333
Winchester WLRM
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle Magnum LRM #KVB-7M - all brass - "For Magnum Rifle loads".

50 BMG

CCI #35 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Winchester 8312
Wolf/Tula 50 Cal Machine Gun #KVB-50 - For 50 Browning Machine Gun

Primers recommended for use in .223 Rem/5.56 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #41, 450, BR4 (#41 & 450 good with ball powder)
Federal 205, 205M
Remington 7 1/2 BR (good with ball powder)
Winchester WSR (good with ball powder)
Wolf SRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf SR223 (hotter than SRM - great with ball powder)

Primers recommended for use in .308 Win/7.62x51/7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #34, 200, BR2, CCI 250
Winchester WLR, WLRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf LR

WOLF/TULA PRIMER APPLICATION CHART FOR ALL PRIMERS - http://www.mpzflame.ru/production/primers/
Wolf and Tula are two of the common U.S. marketing names of primers made by Murom (OJSC «Murom Apparatus Producing plant» "For many years, our constant partners are «The Tula Cartridge Works», «Barnaul Cartridge Plant» and others.").

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NOTE 1:  According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size.  Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness.  Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound.  They can be used interchangeably.