When do I need to clean my 9mm P-09 and P-10 pistols?

[Joe L]

Over the last 10 years, I've gone from "clean them every 500-1000 rounds" to the "clean them after every range session" practice.  This is a result of observing lots of tiny pits in my competition pistol bores due to leaving spent combustion products in the bore long enough for corrosion to take place.  Over the last 3 years, I've changed from bullseye match shooting to much more casual and less frequent 100 and 200 yard precision shooting, so my standards for accuracy have increased much faster than improvements in skill level.  I also acquired a good Teslong borescope so that I could see changes to the pistol bores. 

The problem has always been how to evaluate the borescope results and what plan of action to take based on that evaluation.  The following is based on my very limited experience and on the use of just a few of my own firearms.  Also note that target results are dependent on much more than bore condition and the hardest thing for me to do is to correctly identify cause and effect.  I try to keep as many variables constant as I can but even my own medical issues and temperament affect group size when shooting a pistol at 100 yards. 

I have had some slightly worse than average results over the past two months with the P-10F and P-10S pistols.  I've had exceptionally good results with the 97B"E" and with my old P-09 as of yesterday.  In short, the pistols I have shot the most seem to have fallen off yet I am able to shoot the least used pistols as good as ever.  After the good result with the P-09 on Thursday, I decided maybe I could see some differences in the bores if I borescoped the P-10 barrels at the same time as the P-09 barrel.  The video below is the result.

https://youtu.be/dpTMxZE45y0

It is possible that just a little too much carbon buildup in the P-10F and P-10S barrels is resulting in a little more spread at 100 yards.  The P-09 barrel still has carbon in the grooves, but the deposit appears very thin and smooth, rather than rough and chunky like in the P-10 barrels.  If I can remove the carbon, perhaps the P-10 pistols will return to their normal outstanding accuracy, which has been equal to the P-09 in the past.  I'll know middle of next week, after I deep clean the barrels over the weekend. 

Note that I am nit-picking here.  I expect to see 6" groups out of all three pistols at 100 yards, with an occasional 3-4" group.  The group sizes for the P-10 guns currently seem to be maybe 2" larger than that, not bad, but not as good as they should be shooting.  After shooting two sub 3" groups recently, and knowing that the best day average I've ever had at 100 yards was with the little P-10S, I know something is up and I want to correct the problem and get back to shooting small groups with the striker fired pistols.  More next week. 

Joe

[M1A4ME]

Not everyone spends the time to "get to know" their tools.

Understanding what affects your tools and their performance isn't easy (might be fun, if you like learning), but not everyone does.

Looking forward to your inspection/results after the deep cleaning.

I clean mine every time I shoot them, even sometimes just from carrying them and getting them dusty/dirty.  Just a habit dad drilled into us many years ago.  A habit his dad (WW1 bet and old squirrel hunter back in the days when ammo/primers were corrosive and failure to clean well ruined barrels pretty quickly) drilled into him.

Not saying mine are spotless (the BTE copper fouling stuff really surprised me when I started cleaning those pistol barrels) but I work on them.

Hope your efforts result in "fixing" your P10 performance issues and maybe opening up some eyes/minds.  Some day the guns we have may be the only ones we ever have and taking care of them will be a much more serious thing.

[Joe L]

From what I remember, the P-10F barrel had lots of chatter marks in the grooves when new but it still shot as well as the pitted P-09 barrel!  So I am not sure how smooth I can get it.  The S barrel should clean up pretty well.  I tried some Kroil and a few passes with a pellet and JB on Friday on the F barrel without much effect, so I put all three in the pickle jar with the Hoppes #9 to soak overnight.  The patches sure were smooth when pushing them through the barrel after a little JB, however.  That alone may be enough to show an improvement at 100. 

The key is to find a repeatable procedure, I think, like the benchrest guys do.  They all seem to have their own cleaning schedules and processes and witch doctor dances and chants they repeat every few rounds.  They all may do it a little differently depending on load and bullet type, but they find what works for them and stick with it. 

The most likely scenario for me is to do more than just a #9 soak and a few patches after every range session.  I will probably add a few passes with abrasive pellets and JB to at least knock the high spots down a little and smooth things out enough to be consistently good at a 100 yards.  I already know that a little smooth visible carbon doesn't hurt anything.  Seems to be the uneven surface once the carbon layer starts breaking up that might be the issue.  The rough chatter mark F barrel might not go as long between cleanings as the smoother P-09 barrel.  The F and S pistols were not good enough at 100 to even try them at 200 the last trip to the mountains.  Everything has to be perfect for good results at 200 yards, that's for sure. 

[M1A4ME]

The pitting probably doesn't hurt a thing (except your feelings and making it harder to get really clean.)

I've got an old Winchester M1917 that looks like a sewer pipe down the barrel and it shoots great.  But it just never comes spotlessly clean inside.  I can brush/patch all afternoon and continue to wash out traces of crud from the deep pits.  It's BAD.  If you're used to looking down a barrel with a bore light and seeing shine when you look down this one your brain tells you that you forgot to turn the light on.

[Joe L]

Yep.  I went back to my 2020 videos of the bores and they look very much the same now--P-10F so rough that I wouldn't have bought it if I had scoped it first, good machining on the 09 and S barrels.  The chatter is consistent in the F barrel so it shoots just as well as the 09 at least for a few hundred rounds.  Then the carbon must build up unevenly after that.  I think.  I'll know more next week.  I'm glad I made a bunch of videos last year during my initial borescope/cleaning frenzy. 

[M1A4ME]

Good records can be so valuable.  Without those you're left (mostly) guessing with some problems.

[Joe L]

I haven't been able to remove all of the carbon in the rough grooves of the P-10F and S barrels yet.  Overnight in the #9 plus a lot of brushing didn't help much.  The barrels are wet with Kroil now.  I ordered some intensive abrasive VFG pellets on Saturday, not sure when they will arrive.  Lots of rain forecast this week so I may have time to work them some more.  I'm pretty sure I just let the carbon build up too much in both the P-10 barrels.  And they are rough so the buildup might be a little uneven.  I doubt that I need to remove all of the carbon, but I'm thinking the abrasive pellets will smooth out what is left so that complete removal is unnecessary.  Then I will just use some Kroil and an abrasive pellet after each shooting range session in the future, after I confirm that this week's cleaning is "good enough".  I may do an intermediate video on Monday, depending on how the barrels look by then.  The P-09 barrel cleaned up pretty well, but it doesn't have many rounds at all since the last "deep" cleaning.

[huskerlrrp]

I think bore scopes highlight problems that may not be problems. I like them in my rifles to find carbon rings or keep an eye on the throat but they tend to make me more nervous than that ignorant bliss before them.
If it's gone too far I'd try some Slip 2000 for the carbon or Sweets / Gun Slick foam for the copper fouling. It (Sweets/Gun Slick) will run blue liquid out so you know it's working on dissolving that copper. I've found running two different compounds for two different fouling works better than a common solvent. J&B Bore paste also works to clean out the barrel as a light abrasive. Again, I don't know how much it really matters.
For my regular maintenance, I take a long glass jar (like white asparagus, or something a bit longer than your longest barrel) and fill it with Hoppes #9. I take a thin metal wire an put a hook on the bottom and then cut if off right before the mouth of the lid. This assists in getting it in and out without being so messy. When I'm done shooting, I pull the barrel, run the wire through and let it sit overnight in the jar. When I'm ready, I pull it out, run the brush through it over a paper towel and then swab it clean. My barrels are always nice and it makes cleaning quick.

[Joe L]

I think bore scopes highlight problems that may not be problems. I like them in my rifles to find carbon rings or keep an eye on the throat but they tend to make me more nervous than that ignorant bliss before them.
If it's gone too far I'd try some Slip 2000 for the carbon or Sweets / Gun Slick foam for the copper fouling. It (Sweets/Gun Slick) will run blue liquid out so you know it's working on dissolving that copper. I've found running two different compounds for two different fouling works better than a common solvent. J&B Bore paste also works to clean out the barrel as a light abrasive. Again, I don't know how much it really matters.
For my regular maintenance, I take a long glass jar (like white asparagus, or something a bit longer than your longest barrel) and fill it with Hoppes #9. I take a thin metal wire an put a hook on the bottom and then cut if off right before the mouth of the lid. This assists in getting it in and out without being so messy. When I'm done shooting, I pull the barrel, run the wire through and let it sit overnight in the jar. When I'm ready, I pull it out, run the brush through it over a paper towel and then swab it clean. My barrels are always nice and it makes cleaning quick.

Yep, similar to what I've been doing.  It's the "I don't know how much it really matters" spot that I'm in now.  At least on my rough barrels, the buildup appears to be cumulative, that is, my solvent soak then patch until clean isn't enough to keep up with the additional carbon buildup from each range session.  I am thinking I just need to be much more aggressive after each range session to keep up.  Again, I'm talking what to me is long range precision accuracy, not run and gun accuracy.   More like 2" at 50 yards from a rest when dirty compared to 1-1/2" at 50 yards when clean enough.

Joe 

[Joe L]

The closer I look at my own borescope videos and at others on YouTube, the more I'm convinced that what I've been calling chatter and rough machining is really just very hard backed in carbon on the P-10F and S barrels.  I won't know how distinct the machine marks really look in the grooves until I completely remove the carbon.  My bet is that the F and S barrels look just like the P-09 barrel when the carbon is gone.  I also know the guns shoot very well with just a little less carbon build up than they had when I started this month's cleaning project, so the bare metal machine marks are of no consequence to the accuracy, they may just affect how rapidly the carbon accumulates.  My assumption here is that the rougher the grooves, the more aggressive I need to be with cleaning after every range trip to stay ahead.

[Joe L]

I took the P-10F to the range this morning in cloudy, windy conditions.  This is with the barrel still carboned up pretty bad, but I got at least some of the carbon out.  Results were mixed and I think most of it was me--as I was not as steady with the red dot positioning as I normally am.  Probably medicine related due to procedures early this week.  But I did get the gun back to a normal 8" hold over for the (large) average group with the IMI ammo.   I may have shot one 5" group out of 12 five shot groups.  It was one of those days when I just lost focus and let a shot go when the dot was not centered on the aim point.  I just "gave up on the shot" too many times, as in one shot out of five. 

I just couldn't shoot as well as I did last week.  Gun was better, shooter was worse, they cancelled each other out, so a draw.  Good thing is that I got to shoot 60 rounds through the P-10F, and that makes it a good day, overall.  And the other folks at the range were surprised to see me get so many 8 ring hits at 100 yards while they were sighting in an AR-15 red dot at 25. 

The other high point for the day was getting to see a beginner lady AR-15 shooter get some good instruction and shoot some fine groups at 25 yards with a red dot.  She was having a blast and trying really hard to absorb everything the SO/instructor was teaching her.  It was a new rifle and I don't think she had ever shot an AR-15 before.  While I was packing up, they were moving over to the 100 yard bay.  I bet she shot some good groups at 100 before she packed it in for the day, without a scope, if her eyesight was up to it.   

As for me, its back to the brush/JB/Kroil/pellets until I get more carbon out and my nerves/eyesight settle down some.  Next week should be good one for the 9mm CZ's at 100 yards. 

Joe

[Joe L]

Well, after further review, I found a couple of good groups in the video, so I put them together here in the video below.  Looks like the P-10F barrel is "clean enough" to get back to sub 5" groups even when I'm struggling some with eyesight and steadiness.  I'm actually quite happy with the groups in the video, and with the pistol barrel status.  But I am going to continue to try to get it down to bare metal.  Try. 

https://youtu.be/hiPeG-oh80I

This week, I'm happy to have any range time at all. 

Joe

[Joe L]

I'm done cleaning the 9mm barrels.  Here is a video I shot this afternoon after I finished.

https://youtu.be/2Tw1RxFx3-U

Since I couldn't ever get the grooves to smooth out in the P-10F and S barrels, all I can conclude is that the roughness really is just machining marks.  I think the carbon builds up quicker due to the roughness, but the roughness itself doesn't hurt a thing as far as accuracy goes.  The P-10F was shooting just fine last week.  The P-10S barrel looks better to me now than the P-10F barrel, and the P-09 barrel hasn't been this clean in 7 years.  It is pitted, however and the pits looks bad when viewed with a borescope, but still shoots as well as it did when new.

I ordered a pistol length Teslong borescope this afternoon.  If it gets here in time, I'll take it with me to Ruidoso this week.  I'm tired of trying to use the rifle length borescope on my computer desk.  I'm old and easily irritated, I'm afraid. 

I also went back and looked at some of my P-10S targets when shooting the IMI ammo.  It worked pretty well until the gun got dirty, I think, so I am going to take the P-10S even though I am out of the preferred Atlanta Arms ammo and only have the IMI for this trip.

The plan is to shoot at least the P-09 and P-10F at 200 yards, probably on Thursday and Friday of this week.  We'll see. 

Joe

[Joe L]

Audio was 6db low in the first version of this video that I uploaded.  Here is a revision with the audio level fixed.  May take another 30 minutes or so to upload. 

https://youtu.be/2Tw1RxFx3-U

I'll replace the one above with this one when YouTube catches up.  DONE

Joe

[huskerlrrp]

The land imperfections look like machining marks (galling) to me. I don't think JB bore paste would smooth those out much. It could be interesting to contact CZ USA or CZ Custom and give them a link for their opinions. While I don't think it would cause any functional issues, it's not necessarily "top tier" machining. I don't see that on my CZ barrels, but full disclosure, I have not looked at all my pistol barrels. My interest is now "peaked" and I'll start looking more.