Author Topic: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video  (Read 3586 times)

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Offline Joe L

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I made it to the local 100 yard range today after returning to the Texas Hill Country from the mountains of New Mexico.  I had a great time in New Mexico with the P-10F, except for the first shot from a magazine would always hit high and/or left from a sling shot reload.  That was with some Enos Slide-Glyde Lite on the barrel contact points.  On the P-10S, I had some success using a thicker grease, so I tried that today on the P-10F one more time. 

Problem was that the weather was starting to get wet and it was Thursday so there were people hoping to get in some range time before the rains hit.  I shot 30 rounds and went home.  But that was enough to confirm that the thick grease did not seem to help, if anything, the first shots were off a little more than I remember from NM.  So I am going to go the other direction--light oil when I clean the gun tonight. 

My theory with the thick grease is that it would take up some clearance and maybe help keep the barrel in exactly the same position as it goes to after a recoil chamber.  But I'm thinking it just slowed the slide and the motion down some and made the lock up a little less consistent rather than more.  I should learn something from the switch to oil.  I hope.  If there isn't any improvement using oil, I will go back to the light grease (that I have used for years) and just hold low right first shot, and load 15 rounds for three five shot groups at one time and minimize the reloads.  That worked great in New Mexico. 

So, no 3" groups today due to a nervous shooter, but some good footage of some slightly larger than usual groups at 800 feet ASL, using a 6000 foot ASL 100 yard zero. 



This is fun.  This is not easy.  Sometimes everything gets a little wet, also.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2022, 07:19:45 PM »
I've been wondering about some way to make the M&Ps lock up more consistent.

On the old 1911's you could be a part called a Dwyer Group Gripper.  It replaces the recoil spring guide and the barrel link.  The barrel link has a ledge sticking out on the front of it.  The recoil spring guide has a piece of what looks/acts like spring steel sticking out of the back of it.  The way it works is the back end of the spring catches under the ledge on the barrel link and pushes upwards on the link, attempting (and succeeding based on results) to push the back end of the barrel up into the same spot in relation to the slide after each shot. 

Yeah, I know, buy some extra/longer/special barrel links and experiment till you find the right one, but the Group Gripper was easier to install and worked for me.

Back to CZs.  I've wondered if those pistols that break slide stop pins do so because the fit between the ramp on the back/bottom of the barrel and the pin are so darn close and tight it puts enough extra strain on the pin to break it eventually.

You can't really make the pin larger in diameter without opening up the frame.

I wonder about adding a small amount of metal (weld) to the contact surface on the barrel lug and angling the surface to make rear of the barrel lockup tighter.

I can't weld it but I know somebody that might be able to do it for me so I could experiment (that spare 9MM DUTY slide/barrel/slide lock pin I never use) with that idea.  Then again, the P07 isn't my group size whipping boy, it's those darn M&P pistols and some others (I had high hopes for the FNS .40's, so many features I liked but I couldn't stand the big groups compared to my P07/P09/P01).

No idea how all that works together on the P10 but it's probably similar.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2022, 07:20:57 AM »
M1A4ME--
There is a limit to how much one can tighten up the lock up clearances and still have the gun cycle, I think.  There are also problems adding metal to these high tech modern barrels according to Primary Machine and CGW.  So I have taken a different approach...

The barrel does not have to be tighter in the slide than it is now--note how good the groups are AFTER the first (and some times second) shot from a magazine.  The barrel just has to go to the SAME position for the first shot as it does for the next 4 or 9 or 14, depending on how many one loads initially.  This is one reason that I use as stiff a recoil spring as possible--to minimize the variations in the slide speed between shots.  That one change (years ago) helped a lot in tightening up groups at 100 and 200 yards in several pistols.  And made picking up brass easier. 

So, if the barrel goes up all the way on the breach face and to the left, say, for every shot, it doesn't matter whether the clearance is .001" or .003" horizontally at the chamber end of the barrel.  So the goal for me, given that I am not going to be able to change the clearances without buying an unobtainable oversized barrel and hand fitting, is to figure out how to make the barrel go to the same position for the first shot as it does for all the following shots.  The variables available to me are lubricant and sling shot position/angle/grip

As I'm typing this, I am becoming aware of some additional things to try!  Maybe releasing with the slide pushed to one side on the frame rails or the other will affect the final barrel position.  Maybe the slide has to be angled up or down (which I am not going to do!!  It will remain horizontal and down range for a sling shot reload.)   Maybe going back to a slide lock release with a much weaker magazine spring will be more consistent.  Maybe rotating the frame 90 degrees one direction or the other around the barrel axis prior to releasing the slide will allow gravity to help get the barrel in the same position as for the next shots.

I can spend the winter and loads of ammo chasing this one.  Might be worth it, however.  To me. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2022, 08:04:09 AM »
Can you modify an automotive type (spark plug) feeler gauge to slide it down between the chamber area and the left side of the slide to measure the difference in left/right positioning of the back of the barrel between 1st round chambering and subsequent chambering?
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2022, 08:55:53 AM »
Sure, I might try that. 

I think I have noticed something else that I am doing.  My left arm fingers are weak, so, for a sling shot reload, I grip the pistol with my left hand and tilt it to the right and release with my right hand.  If gravity has any effect, the rear of the barrel will settle against the right side of the slide, which will make the gun shoot left.  Maybe if I tilt the gun to the left and try to release the slide, the rear of the barrel will settle to the left, consistent with the later shots. 

I think the horizontal movement of the rear of the barrel is about 0.002", but I will check it again.  It isn't any .005-.008" like I've seen on non-CZ service pistols.  At 100 yards, one or two mil at either end of the barrel will make 1 or 2 inches difference, but adding the clearance at both ends is still only 4 inches or so.  I may be chasing the wrong solution!  I may try just rotating the gun around the barrel axis with no other changes and see what happens. 

If I can't find a mechanical reason for the 1st shot high left, I am thinking my trigger finger may be the culprit!  Or initial grip versus next shots, something like that.   
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2022, 11:13:57 AM »
Just got back from the range.  Shot 24 rounds, 3 at a time, no changes other than slide lock reload with the pistol tilted to the left about 20 degrees.  No time to set up video.  But there is a group of
six shots high left with the rest about where they were yesterday, so I am going to conclude, no improvement in the first shot with just this change...and the weather...and my attitude. 

In other words, a quick and crude test that was enough to get me to keep looking, probably go back to the lubricant change for a more formal test next week, if the range dries out before I leave town again.  Norther due here tonight. 
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: A weather shortened 100 yd day with the P-10F in the Hill Country, video
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2022, 06:42:13 PM »
High/left.  That does sound like the back of the barrel isn't going fully upwards into the slide recesses for the lugs on the top of the barrel.

Forgive me if I've forgotten, have you tried smacking the back of the slide to see if maybe it's not completely absolutely all the way forward when you chamber that first round?  Forward as far as it is when operating from a fired round and not from a release of a locked back slide (not quite as far back as when fired and maybe slowed down a bit by the hand/finger release.)

I never see anything like that with my shooting but I'm not shooting more that 12 yds. at the most with my pistols.  I keep telling myself to go to the 25 yd. or even 50 yd. range but I haven't done it.  Might be fun with the P09 9MM.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline roggiedog

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What happened to Joe L? I miss his videos here. Anyone know where he went?

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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What happened to Joe L? I miss his videos here. Anyone know where he went?
Man I don't know but I think he is an older guy (ME TOO). Hope he's dong well where ever he is.

Offline Whereisit

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Well from the looks of his YouTube channel his last posted video was 3 months ago. I Googled his real name and nothing came up.

Offline Wobbly

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Well from the looks of his YouTube channel his last posted video was 3 months ago. I Googled his real name and nothing came up.

Last active here Jan 24.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Joe L

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I am alive and well, just tied up with other stuff.  Two deaths in the family over the last year and I am in the middle of (very treatable and not life threatening cancer) radiation treatment and don't really want to handle any firearms until after I get my strength back.  I've been working on my video skills and have upgraded my video and sound gear so should be able to get back to the range in mid-April.  As proof of my existence and health, I offer the following video from Sunday morning, made for my adult kids and grandkids.



Best regards,
Joe L
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Sulpgnir

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Glad to hear that you are alive and well Joe  :)

Sometimes life events will help "re-organize" our priorities, one way or another  ;)

Take good care of yourself, and as always, looking forward to see more of your videos!


Offline Wobbly

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Glad to hear that you are alive and well Joe  :)


Give 'em "L", Joe !

Glad you're doing good.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline roggiedog

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Glad to hear you're alive and well! My 97 was starting to lose some accuracy, but I think the next time out it'll be right back on target.  :)