CZ P-07/09 OEM Hammer modification question

[Larry F]

Thks, good input.  Helps firm up my opinion on how much better the CGW will work in Polymer Frame CZ's.  I've had quite a bit of interaction with the CGW guns on the changes I've made, problems I've run into, and problems I've created in improving my P07's action.  What I know about their hammer, relative to the OEM hammer, is:
-it's high carbon thru hardened (52 rockwell C) steel and more precisely machined compared to the OEM MIM, 45 (rockwell C) hammer with rougher surfaces and duller edges.
-the hook depth is shorter, the hook engagement angle was not changed, nor was the hammer pin's pivoting location
- they are used with OEM sear, with it's as-cast leading edge to be trued and the face roughed up rather than smoothly polished
-1911 performance projections are meant to be relative to other mass produced Polymer Frame and 1911 pistols.  They aren't claiming comparable performance to CZ's metal frame pistols, which can be even further improved with a custom sear, or to high end 1911's
-the custom sear has a different hook to sear face engagement but still keeps the original radiused secondary angle.

Most seasoned CZ users already know the above but I didn't.  My thoughts and opinion for what it's worth at this point are:
-I've made my S/A trigger break feel firmer and sharper and reduced my fear of firing a round before I intend
-CGW's hammer will further firm and sharpen the feel
-these changes will move my trigger action's feel from poor to good to better but not comparable with that of a good 1911 pistol.

I going to used my pistol as reconfigured for a while before adapting the CGW hammer.  Thks, Larry
 
 

[M1A4ME]

There's more to trigger pull than SA and DA pull weights.

Let me say up front, I don't pay attention to what I call slack - the distance rearward distance between where the hammer rests and where the rearward movement reaches a point where easy rearward movement stops.  My finger/brain work together without me thinking about it.  After the pistol fires my finger allows the trigger to reset the sear and then takes up the slack till rearward movement stops again.  In my P07 DUTY there is no creep/drag, etc.  The rearward movement stops and anymore rearward movement makes it fire.  After shooting other pistols the P07 is usually a surprise when I shoot it again.  I got really lucky when I picked that pistol up off the table at that gun show.

You've done the polishing of parts and that seems to help a lot with most pistols.  The Omegas haven't been around as long as the CZ75 pistols.  They haven't been thought of as being as accurate as the CZ75's.  Many people don't like the plastic framed pistols or trust them.

If you get a chance, look up some of Joe's video's on shooting his P09 9MM at 100 and 200 yds.  The P07/P09 can be very accurate.  They're just not pretty.  Even if the trigger pulls are not as customizable as the CZ75's they can shoot like them.

My M&P 2.0 5" 9MM taught me that a super nice trigger (Apex) doesn't make a poor shooting pistol shoot better.  Feels better?  Absolutely.  Shoot better groups?  Nope.

[Larry F]

I buy into what you're saying - the P07 feel is different from what I'm used to.  My interest in pistols started a few years ago when my wife suddenly got caught up in the concealed carry for self protection wave and wanted a pistol.  It caused me to sell one of my better shotguns and buy 2 Glocks.  Being mechanically minded, I progressed to Sigs and Walthers, doing some tuning on each, and finally to a Les Bear 1911, which I've left alone. 

My perspective of a good trigger pull has been that it be relatively light and have a sharp break. The P07 break is light but I think it will have at least some creep regardless of how much you tweak it because of the sear configuration and eccentric hammer rotation.  I'm confident I'll get used to it over time unless one of my kids pirate it.  The CGW guys have been particularly open and helpful as I've blundered along.   

I suspect what happened with CZ's Polymer pistol line is that they recognized the Polymer pistol wave and their business model target for this line is higher volume - lower margin rather vs the higher margin - lower volume philosophy of their Metal frame line and they have controlled major manufacturing capitol investment thru using current design technology and common or slightly modified parts - probably smart thinking.  However, it causes avid tuners to spend as much on upgrades as the paid for the pistol. 

P07 action parts don't line up, stay lined up and interact as well as they would in a rigid metal framed pistol and tuning becomes as much art as science.  Your, along with other experienced users, insights help as I grind thru a new learning experience.  Thks, Lary

[M1A4ME]

If you're one of those people that fall into this category:

The more you do, the more you learn.

You're in a good place.

Every time I think I'm getting "good" something I've not run into before pops up and smack me in the face.

[Larry F]

M1AME has me pegged-I am a learn by doing guy.    Didn't, and still don't, know much about CZ pistols when I got my P07 in a trade.  I thought it was a pretty rough gun but but only had a set of dust gathering golf clubs invested and thought I could make it function better without spending more than I could get out of it.  CGW's marketing info leads you towards being able to make it work like a 1911 pistol along and most forum postings are supportive of the claim.

I'm also a trust but verify guy.  I have yet to find a P07 or P09 using a race hammer locally do understand how well they really function.  The CGW guys have been pretty open when pressed about their 1911 claims - I have a mass produced Polymer pistol and can make it it comparable to comparable mass produced 1911's.  Dave at CGW says the shorter hooks on their hammer, truing the sear and roughing the sear face will make a real difference but I shouldn't expect to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.  My local gun shop guys don't carry CZ's but have been interested enough to help me do a hands on comparison with their stock of 1911 pistols - mostly midrange Springfields and Tisas.  My DA is better than the Tisas and pretty comparable to the stock Springfields but the SA isn't as good.

I'll probably adapt a race hammer eventually but for now I'm going to use my gun with the modifications I've made and let it's performance settle on me while continue trying to find a fully modified pistol to check out.  I do apologize to other forum regulars as I've taken some of their inputs as opinion based and pressed for more detail on their hands-on experiences.  Thks, Larry

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I would not even consider comparing the da/sa lockwork of a CZ or ANY other da/sa pistol to a 1911. They are 2 ENTIRELY different worlds and you will never be able to tune the slack that will be present in the da/sa system out. That is just a simple fact. The 1911 being sa only can be tuned to have nearly all take up and overtravel removed along with pull weights of sub 3lbs. Guns like CZ's Beretta 92's and their variants hammer fired Sig p-series guns and the like can definitely be dialed in far better than they come from their factories but 1911 ish? Never.

[Earl Keese]

There are 1911 triggers... and everything else. That's just the way it is. Trying to equal a good 1911 trigger with anything else is a fools errand. Like German Shepards and Belgian Malinois...you may prefer the shepard, but it will never match the Malinois.

[Larry F]

If I were to buy a new hammer fired polymer pistol I'd probably pick a 1911 Rock River Poly but I've got to work with what I have in hand - a used CZ P07. 
 
I'm OK, even with the obvious warts 1911 guys point out, with how P07 action functions now with the exception of how the trigger feels when I trip it in the SA mode.  I've used forum inputs in polishing and replacing parts, and tweaked a Wolfe mainspring to shift more of the DA stacking feel to the front half of the trigger's travel.  The SA break is still a rolling release but it's firm enough now that I don't inadvertently trip the trigger before I intend to.

I think there's 3 things left to move the needle on how the SA break feels before I sign off on upgrading this pistol:
- CGW's Red sear spring which was just  released.  It's their stiffest yet.
- Roughing the sear face as CGW recommends.  I've shied away from doing that up to now because I trued the leading edge of
  the sear early on and knocked the action out of time and I didn't like the basic idea of a rough sear surface.
- A new race Hammer.  I've held off because I don't have a good feel on what it will do.  I haven't found a modified P07 or
  P09 locally to check out first hand, The geometry differences with 1911's, and I have a general practice of not investing more
  into guns than I can get out of them. 

  What I have now is a better functioning pistol with adjustable sights, it's case, 2 extra magazines, and some spare springs. 
  What I've invested is a set of used golf clubs which I hung onto when I couldn't get a decent trade in allowance on a new set,
  $150 in parts, $35 in postage, a fair amount of elbow grease and buying a new hammer will put me over what I think the gun
  is worth in the market place.   

I'd appreciation any other suggestions.  Thks, Larry

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I recently finished the mods on another P-07. I mount my sears in a fixture and only "square them up" so I don't generally run into timing issues. I have tried the CGW sear springs including the recently released red spring and I find I do not like them and the factory sear spring coupled with the CGW hammer and 18lb hammer spring give me the optimal da/sa pull or at least I get the trigger feel that I personally like. I always add the short reset kit as well. 
As to spending more on a gun than you can get for it if you buy a new gun like buying a new car you've already spent more than you'll ever recover. Hopefully you can continue to trade you less loved items and save a buck that way.

[Larry F]

Good info.  What problems do you run into when you install the short reset kit?  I've shied away from it because David at CGW indicated I probably wouldn't be satisfied after using Sig's short reset kit plus I don't know what else may be required to make it work right. 

I am a pretty frugal guy and I've continued driving my 1998 Pickup since new - to each his own.  Thks, Larry

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

No problems installing the SRS kit at all. Pretty much drops right in without issue. No it isn't the same as the SRS in a Sig but the Sig action is also totally different. I had many Sigs at one point and yep their SRS is outstanding but the Sigs didn't hold a candle to any of my CZ's as far as accuracy nor reliability-my own experience. The Sigs are gone and the CZ's remain.
I'm frugal as well my car will be 30 yrs old this year but I like to go all in modding my guns.

[M1A4ME]

I had many Sigs at one point and yep their SRS is outstanding but the Sigs didn't hold a candle to any of my CZ's as far as accuracy nor reliability-my own experience. The Sigs are gone and the CZ's remain. 

And that is why I'm still carrying that old DUTY P07 .40 after buying 14 or 15 other pistols since I carried it home.  I think the CZ75B .40 could give it a run for the money but the P07 carries better.

[Larry F]

I'm not an avoid shooter but the accuracy I'm seeing with my Duty P07 .40 pistol is better than I expected.  The pistol came with adjustable sights I've adjusted so the POA and POI intersect at 20 yds using 165 gr HST JHP ammunition.  I'm getting 3 shot bench rest groupings of 2.5" - 3.5" at this distance.  My reworked Sig P6 is identical and Sig P220 is only a bit better (2"-3") with carry ammunition on a good day.

My only quandary left is that it's SA break stills feels soft to me but isn't bad enough to kick the gun out of bed over.  Frankly, forum inputs vary enough that I'll find a tuned P07 or P09 pistol and make a direct comparison before I change it much more.  I live in the GSP SC area and have call back requests in at our local range and several gun shops.  Thks, Larry       

[Sc0-]

Just went through a P07 and P09, stoned flat surfaces flat, deburred other surfaces, and squared up a few edges, applied a tiny bit of molly when assembling.  Maintained all springs and didn't touch the slide components.  The above gave me a 4lb'ish very smooth single action trigger pull, very happy with the way they turned out...  (CMP requires a 4lb trigger for Service Pistol EIC matches.)  Normally I would say triggers don't matter much but for bullseye it can make a difference...

Have worked on plenty of other triggers, prefer to use factory springs to maintain reliability without overspending on aftermarket components.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Have worked on plenty of other triggers, prefer to use factory springs to maintain reliability without overspending on aftermarket components.

define overspending?