Author Topic: Optics. What do you prefer?  (Read 8727 times)

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Offline v35

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2023, 07:27:48 PM »
Thank you M1A4ME. I did wind up buying the Shield Plus OR thanks to your report New project, yeah, M&P again

You know, for a "free" site this one sure costs me a lot of money :D

Shot it today. No pictures or anything but I was pleased with my results. You might say I really, really like the Shield. It's my third.

Based on your reports I'm leaning in favor of a Holosun. Probably buy a 507 due to its small form factor. Might buy a different one for the VP9 but we'll see how Holosun works out in general.

By the way I also experienced the problem you discussed on another website regarding an inability to load more than 11 rounds in S&W's 13 round magazine. No problems with the 10 or 15 round mags. Bizarre problem, easy fix.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2023, 06:42:45 AM »
Yeah, when I got mine some mags would take 13 fairly easily, some only with the uplula loader and a lot of force along with popping/crunching noises as the last round or two went into the magazine.

That angle mod. to the rear follower legs took care of the issue 100%.  Too bad S&W hasn't picked up on it and taken care of it from the factory.

One of the things I like about the Shields (original and Plus) is they shoot the same ammo well that does so well in all my CZ 9MM pistols.  It's nice to know those boxes of reloads work well (function and accuracy) in all those pistols - they don't shoot well in the full sized M&P 9MM pistols.  The Shields are just better shooting guns, for some reason.

Be sure the optic you order will fit that narrow slide/post set up in the optics cut.  I got a HS407K for the Shield Plus 3" slide.  Not sure what others might be the narrow style/model.

Good luck with yours.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline v35

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2023, 01:21:43 PM »
For the VP9 I'm thinking it may be worth waiting for the SCS:

https://www.holosun.com/index/product/detail/id/232.html

Offline v35

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Perhaps an optic is not for me
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2023, 09:45:55 PM »
I installed a Holosun HS507K-X2 on my Shield Plus, along with a DPP Titanium Optic Adapter. Took it to the range and...

... well, I'm not convinced an optic is right for me. Whereas I can visually acquire the Shield's three dot sights immediately, it takes a very long time to figure out where that dot is and point the gun where I want it to shoot. I've been shooting handgun for about 20 years now and while I'm not a competitive shooter, I'm competent and well within my personal comfort zone.

The Holosun is a really nice unit, nice and clear and bright. But using an optic in general seems to be a mystery, and perhaps I'm just not ready for one.

Another problem: At ten yards, the Holosun initially shot about 6 inches too high. That seems like a lot considering Holosun claimed only minor adjustments might be required. Left / right was nearly perfect but I had to adjust the elevation setting to its extreme limit. That just doesn't seem right.

Right now, if I were to find myself in a defensive situation I'd rather have iron sights.

What's wrong with me?

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Perhaps an optic is not for me
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2023, 05:09:12 AM »
Right now, if I were to find myself in a defensive situation I'd rather have iron sights.
What's wrong with me?
Nothing at all. I thought I might be interested in an optic since they are all the rage today. They have several optic equipped pistols in the rental case at the local range so I gave them all a try and found myself feeling about the same as you. I'll be sticking with my boring old fiber optic sights for the immediate future. Optics just are not for everyone. Yes I understand there's a learning curve involved but at this point I have no interest.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Perhaps an optic is not for me
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2023, 07:42:49 AM »
I installed a Holosun HS507K-X2 on my Shield Plus, along with a DPP Titanium Optic Adapter. Took it to the range and...

... well, I'm not convinced an optic is right for me. Whereas I can visually acquire the Shield's three dot sights immediately, it takes a very long time to figure out where that dot is and point the gun where I want it to shoot. I've been shooting handgun for about 20 years now and while I'm not a competitive shooter, I'm competent and well within my personal comfort zone.

The Holosun is a really nice unit, nice and clear and bright. But using an optic in general seems to be a mystery, and perhaps I'm just not ready for one.

Another problem: At ten yards, the Holosun initially shot about 6 inches too high. That seems like a lot considering Holosun claimed only minor adjustments might be required. Left / right was nearly perfect but I had to adjust the elevation setting to its extreme limit. That just doesn't seem right.

Right now, if I were to find myself in a defensive situation I'd rather have iron sights.

What's wrong with me?

Had that issue with the DP Pros when we had a CZ75 Compact milled for my wife to carry.  Neither of the two I bought would adjust down enough to get POI and POA together at 5 yds.  I ended up putting a shim under the rear of the sight to raise the back up and that let me zero it.  The other day, when sighting in the new Holoson on the 4" Shield slide assembly I had to crank that screw down tight to get POI to POA.  I believe it is bottomed out - and that's okay.  It shoots where I want it to shoot. 

If I could guarantee I'd never lose my glasses iron sights would be okay.  If my glasses fall off the front sight does the invisible man trick and disappears on me.  Without my glasses the dot is blurry.  I've found I can put a blurry dot on a target anytime I want/need to.  So, still good to go if I lose my glasses.

For whatever reason I didn't have the issues with struggling to find the dot that some people report. 
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline SoCal

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2023, 09:37:17 AM »
I have Holosun 507 green mounted on an SP-01, milled by Brekke Custom. and a SP-01 Bull Shadow milled by CZC.  Both needed little adjustment to zero, perhaps it is the mount not the optic that is off.
If I had known how much better being retired is than working I would have done it FIRST.

Offline v35

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2023, 04:37:05 PM »
... perhaps it is the mount not the optic that is off.

You got it SoCal. The DPP Titanium Optic Adapter comes with two mounting plates. Anyway I changed it to the "other" plate and the elevation adjustment came right up, probably close to if not exactly where it was to begin with. Problem solved.

Don't know why the other plate was so far off. Everything was pristine and clean and flat and screws properly torqued. It's a mystery.

The other problem is me, and I can work on that. The only question is whether I want to.

Offline ams

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2023, 09:11:57 PM »
Work on picking up your front sight through the glass as it is coming up, then it should be fairly quiick to pick.up the dot with minimal adjusting.  I can pick up the dot faster that way.  In a defensive situation that might not be the ideal method as you don't want to take your eyes off the target. As you get practice though it settles fast

Offline RSR

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2023, 05:25:27 AM »
I know next to nothing about optics, so I went to a Cabela's in an effort to educate myself. The only thing I learned is not to go to a Cabela's :-[ They didn't even have any ammunition I needed or wanted. Forget reloading supplies. It's been a long time since I set foot in Cabela's. Things have really gone downhill there.

Cabelas was subject to what was effectively a hostile takeover in 2016 after activist investor Paul Singer's Elliott Management put them under threat...  And now, unfortunately, Cabela's is a shell of what it formerly was. 

Our local Central Texas Cabelas, opened mid 2000s, and a 30 minute drive or so from me for most of that time and since the merger has lost its fudge shop/general store, cafeteria/restaurant, bargain cave, furniture store, and most of the gift shop; the gun library and surplus/used guns section is now a joke (used to have everything from highly curated and rare to just quality trade-ins or surplus buys, and now primarily just has super-expensive new guns); ammo selection is now extremely poor and they're also now price-gouging (didn't in the Obama years ammo rushes -- one of the few affordable and available ammo retailers in that era, and with online orders w/ free in-store pickup their purchase limits [generally just a single to a couple boxes] meant you could actually ensure you could get it affordable prices by consistently placing your one box per day per email address order); and the inventory of most of the rest of their stuff is now half of what it used to be and a good portion is now Bass Pro branded...
The optics counter also has half of what it did, is now rarely ever manned (used to have 2 employees on it), and they moved some other inventory into the cases -- not recalling what offhand (haven't looked closely at it the past couple of visits).

Effectively Cabela's model was a premium outdoor department store (that premium department store experience [yes, including shopping mall anchors] due to competition really went by the wayside w/ all the mergers in the 1990s to 2000s), and Cabelas was one of the few remaining into the 2010s that had the full experience with enough spectacle/sights and merchandise inventory and food to keep you in the store all day...  Now the spectacle/sights still take a good two hours, but the merchandise inventory is easily half of what it used to be.  And food is now just all shelf-stable snacks...  Unsurprisingly, the fishing section is the only one that's not gutted...
Effectively, Cabelas is now a quick pit stop off the highway, instead of the destination itself.

Still take the kids as they enjoy the sights, but we spend very little $ there nowadays except for snacks and the laser shooting arcade (which like much of the sights is slowly falling into disrepair).  But the rest of the experience now tends to invoke an unsettling nostalgia with echoes to the earliest time of the start of the death of shopping malls... So honestly at this point, I'm just biding time for a Scheels to open in the southern half of Texas -- one opened in north Texas in 2020, so there's hope...

And IMO, this BassPro/Cabelas merger (two largest sporting goods chains at the time) should have been prevented by the FTC on antitrust grounds, but they've done little to protect consumers on that front over the past two decades...  For instance, the Albertsons (also including their subsidiary Safeway, Jewel-Osco, Acme, Shaw, Tom Thumb, Vons, United, Randalls, etc. stores) and Kroger (also including their subsidiary Harris Teeter, Fred Meyer, Frys, King Soopers, Ralphs, Smiths, Pick-N-Save, Dillons, Food4Less, QFC, Roundys, etc. stores) merger is likely to be approved by them as well, even though those are the two largest grocery chains in the nation... 
And that'll basically leave Ahold Delhaize (Food Lion, Giant, Stop & Shop, and Hannaford), Publix, HEB, and Meijer as the remaining major competing grocery chains, but all quite a bit smaller...  There will also be Walmart, dollar stores, membership clubs (Sams [aka Walmart], Costco, & BJs), Target, and Amazon as grocery goods competitors, but typically major mergers like this and BassPro/Cabelas result in higher prices and less product selection for consumers, and more profits to corporations.

More on Cabela's change in ownership: "Under Threat From Elliott, Cabela's Sells to Bass Pro for $5.5 Billion
The announcement of a combination comes after the activist investor launched a campaign last year urging the hunting and camping outfitter to consider a sale or other strategic options."
https://www.thestreet.com/markets/mergers-and-acquisitions/under-threat-from-elliott-cabela-s-sells-to-bass-pro-for-5-5b-13839040

And Fox News/Tucker did a 10 minute segment regarding: "The death of Sidney, Nebraska: How a hedge fund destroyed 'a good American town'"
https://www.foxnews.com/us/paul-singer-sidney-nebraska-cabelas-bass-pro-shops-merger
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 06:16:47 AM by RSR »

Offline SoCal

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2023, 08:55:28 AM »
When Cabalas went public that is the game they agreed to play, it's a little late for them to be crying foul.  Not saying I like it but when you take all the money for going public it does come with strings.
If I had known how much better being retired is than working I would have done it FIRST.

Offline double-d

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2023, 01:00:57 PM »
.

Prefer? The rods and cones of my eyes because without those---------

Offline RSR

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2023, 05:00:05 PM »
When Cabalas went public that is the game they agreed to play, it's a little late for them to be crying foul.  Not saying I like it but when you take all the money for going public it does come with strings.

No, that's the game America's private equity and venture capitalists play -- Tucker calls it "vulture capitalism" in the segment/link above and also notes how such (mis)conduct is outlawed in the UK, while I personally just consider it predatory finance consisting of financial gimmicks and shell games...
Whether its greed or something else, folks put making a buck before the long-term best interests of the companies themselves as well as their customers/consumers.  Publicly-listed US businesses, as well as most of those private businesses funded with VC or PE money, now have management that cares most about maximizing this month's quarterly report (as well as DEI/CSR), not long-viability and profitability...  It's now: "how do we make the most money and best maximize our cashflow in the short-term?"
That's also the concern many of us have re: the Colt-CZ merger.

Cabelas clearly wasn't playing this game or focused on the short-term when they went public -- they went public in order to secure the finances they needed to expand and open new store locations to better serve customers and increase long-term profits (constructing several dozen multi-million dollar stores takes years to pay off).

I was just noting what was formerly this nation's foremost sporting goods retailer now has a sporting goods/outdoors product selection similar to Dick's, Gander, Academy, etc, smaller stores (and generally at a higher/premium price) where they used to be something so much greater -- and the pre-BassPro Cabelas stores were a complete experience rather than current scattershot and relatively hollow one...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 05:10:21 PM by RSR »

Offline v35

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2023, 08:28:22 PM »
I really liked Cabela's a few years ago but it seems I got into shooting sports at about the time they peaked. It's been downhill ever since.

Change is inevitable, but it seems these days it's all about "what's in it for me" as in literally just one person winding up in total financial control of a company, and then just bleeding it to death for his sole personal benefit. Eddie Lampert comes to mind. I'm sure he made out just fine personally, but a major retailer that literally went by the slogan "Where America Shops" is gone for good.

Come to think of it last time I set foot in a Wal-Mart I asked myself "what am I doing here?" Couldn't come up with an answer, and haven't set foot in one since. It's been at least two years.

Same for Dick's. If all they want to do is sell badminton racquets that doesn't seem like a viable business plan to me. Used to buy all my shotgun shells there, no more.

It's not all bad. No matter what, I'm still going to shoot, but I've been shopping more and more at small local gun shops. And you know what? Same goes for supermarkets. Ahold's properties were never that great but now they're awful. They all got greedy after covidmania and now I get a lot of my food from local farm shops and dairies.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 08:33:39 PM by v35 »

Offline RSR

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Re: Optics. What do you prefer?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2023, 04:04:40 AM »
I really liked Cabela's a few years ago but it seems I got into shooting sports at about the time they peaked. It's been downhill ever since.

Change is inevitable, but it seems these days it's all about "what's in it for me" as in literally just one person winding up in total financial control of a company, and then just bleeding it to death for his sole personal benefit. Eddie Lampert comes to mind. I'm sure he made out just fine personally, but a major retailer that literally went by the slogan "Where America Shops" is gone for good.

Come to think of it last time I set foot in a Wal-Mart I asked myself "what am I doing here?" Couldn't come up with an answer, and haven't set foot in one since. It's been at least two years.

Same for Dick's. If all they want to do is sell badminton racquets that doesn't seem like a viable business plan to me. Used to buy all my shotgun shells there, no more.

It's not all bad. No matter what, I'm still going to shoot, but I've been shopping more and more at small local gun shops. And you know what? Same goes for supermarkets. Ahold's properties were never that great but now they're awful. They all got greedy after covidmania and now I get a lot of my food from local farm shops and dairies.

Grew up w/ Cabela's catalogs and occasional mail orders, and had been at least one Bass Pro Store as kid, but first Cabela's store was the mid-2000s local to me one IIRC...  Cabelas was the main sporting goods catalog in the home but also got Bass Pro.  Eastbay catalogs for sportsball stuff, and then Stateline Tack for horse stuff.  Pennys and Sears catalogs were around too.

Sears and KMart's demise was a shame -- much preferred KMart to WalMart, and my Gpa bought all his suits and tools at Sears...  Walmart nowadays -- I feel ya.  I'm tired of being treated like a criminal w/ their receipt checking, including exit gates at some stores, so generally buy the few things I need from there online.

Yeah, I personally call it vampire corporatism -- IMO, it's due the financialization of the US markets/economy and the prioritization of short-term profits/value-extraction instead of building long-term value...  It's like a get-rich-quick scheme and a game of hot potato, in which the hot potato (the business itself) always becomes rotten and the public/taxpayers are always left holding much of the losses and subsiding the bill for pensions and bailouts...

I haven't been in Dicks since they took their anti-gun stand but they've always prioritized premium products/brands for the country/sports club set...  We go to Academy Sports instead.

And I don't think I've been in an Ahold grocery in over a decade when I lived on East Coast (don't think they have anything in Texas) -- but yeah, generally went to Harris Teeter (preferred) or Safeway (convenient) but similar to Ahold IIRC.

You bet -- I'm pro-shopping local and small businesses and diversification, but the charm of Cabelas was at one time they had pretty much everything, and you could see and handle in-person to figure out what you wanted for gifts or whatever w/o feeling like you're disrespecting someone's time if not buying that day (or even possibly not buying) and/or have the potential for what you want to not be there when your significant whomever goes to get it...  I always did avoid Cabelas on the weekends during hunting and holiday season though -- it was horribly crowded with extended waits at all counters.

Local gun shops here are highly curated -- and it seems to be either to shop owner's standard/preferences, highest margins, or lowest cost, especially on the optics front.  In my experience, there are only a couple of several dozen locally-owned gun shops in the Austin-area that genuinely get customer service and also have significant inventory of rifles, handguns, shotguns, optics, accessories, ammo, reloading supplies, etc. of different makes and models and price ranges...  And don't know that any have a robust selection of all of these.

With online orders and returns getting easier, as well as all the online review vids and better product pics, forums like this where you can crowdsource opinions, etc., all of this perhaps less of an issue nowadays than it would have been 20 years ago -- but there's something to be said for hands-on and in-person shopping, especially for major purchases that are largely shaped by personal preference...  Buying firearms and accessories for them aren't exactly like buying a car or anything else custom-fitted or highly personal preference like a suit, but they are much more so than buying a surge protector or package of paper towels off amazon.

I guess my point is that there's something to be said for experience as well as convenience...  Nowadays, we seem to be losing the former in a host of ways and in doing so also losing some of the latter as well as your Cabelas experience illustrated...  And there's certainly some pause or contemplation on what that means for one's own kiddos as well as the next generation generally.

Sorry for derailing your thread, but appreciated this exchange.