Author Topic: Cz p10F fires in a holster  (Read 9647 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Sigman1393

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2023, 10:26:50 AM »
Sorry, I am an LEO.  I'd rather leave the name of the agency out, but I work as an SRO for a school district in Texas.  I don't think its a holster issue I was using a Safariland hols.ter with a TRL HL attached to the weapon.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2023, 10:42:48 AM »
Sorry, I am an LEO.  I'd rather leave the name of the agency out, but I work as an SRO for a school district in Texas.  I don't think its a holster issue I was using a Safariland hols.ter with a TRL HL attached to the weapon.
Well without any more info than you're providing and absent any other complaints about the P10 line such as yours what are we to think. No one likes to be at fault but until proof otherwise is shown I'm inclined to believe something either was caught or did catch the trigger and moved it to fire.
Being a LEO you know how the proof thing works.
Interesting that a negligent discharge could happen at a school and not make the news these days???
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 06:55:17 PM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Grendel

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8956
  • 'Live Long, and Prosper'
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2023, 10:01:12 AM »
Someone or something pulled the trigger
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

I wasn't born in America, but I got here as fast as I could.

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12784
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2023, 10:05:25 AM »
Someone or something pulled the trigger

Someone or something depressed the trigger safety and then pulled the trigger.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7578
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2023, 09:32:33 PM »
Holsters that accommodate a light/laser usually "grab" the light/laser, not the trigger guard like most holsters that hold a handgun in place.

Sounds like he was searching for either more cases of this happening or some things to look at that could make it happen.

Like the rest of you, if this happened it's the first one I've ever heard of.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Auslander

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2023, 06:46:15 PM »
Based upon the P10 design, I cannot explain how a P10 would fire "uncommanded."  In my opinion, there would have to be broken parts AND something beyond my understanding would have to happen.  A coat string in the holster is another matter. 

I am a senior LEO in a command position and I have seen all manners of firearms related issues on both military and LE ranges.  During my career, I've conducted forensic weapon examinations and testified to same in court or as part of IA investigations.  My testimony has helped put murderers in prison AND my investigations have seen a few of officers disciplined for negligence.  Thankfully I haven't had to deal with firearms related LEO criminal misconduct within my organization. 

I have seen weapons malfunction.  I've seen weapons go off out-of-battery and blow apart.  I've seen rifles and pistols slam fire.  I've seen coat drawstrings, shirttails and all manner of things get get hung up in in trigger guards/holsters.  I've seen cops and military members do some really stupid stuff.  All of these issues had causes that could be explained. 

A missing spring in a AR hammer will cause the hammer pin to walk and the gun will slam fire upon loading.  Bad ammo, fouled chambers can lead to KB's.  Weak springs, worn parts, even a primer stirrup can render a weapon inoperable. These are hardware issues. 

Poor weapon handling, drawstrings in your holster, failing to put the cam pin in an AR bolt carrier..... etc, are software issues.  In 28 years, I have seen many more software issues.  I'm also not personally immune from software issues.     

I'm not in the habit of badmouthing designs, but someone alluded to the "uncommanded fire" reports with the P320's.  In 2015, I led a team to evaluate the 1st Gen P320 as a potential duty weapon.  Aside from magazine issues, that design did not incorporate a disconnector (mechanism that would prevent out of battery sear release).  Because the 1st gen triggers basically reset on their own without slide actuation, it was possible to hold the trigger in a manner to facilitate sear override that would either result in a dead striker (with a slight primer indention) or the weapon would slam fire.  We didn't get around to dropping it before we reported our findings to Sig and moved on to a different weapon.  Unlike the P10, the P320's striker is 100% cocked and the sear interfaces very similar to the way a bolt action rifle does.  Compared to a Glock or P10, the sear surface is pretty small with a very small amount of metal of the sear interfacing with a small surface on the striker.  Because of this design, the success of the system is highly dependent upon the tolerance between the slide and the slide rails.  Pull the trigger on one that has seen a 1000 or so rounds and you can watch the slide move up when the trigger is pressed.  Add the fact that there is no trigger safety, a very light trigger and a very short distance the trigger must be depressed before the striker safety is disengaged - essentially the weapon is like carrying around a cocked P226 with all of the slack taken out of the trigger.  I can understand how a 1st Generation P320 can go off in a holster, particularly with rough handling. With the 2nd Gen ones, with the secondary sear surface and the disconnectior issue resolved, its harder to explain related to the hardware.  Because of the lack of trigger safety and my analogy to a cocked P226,  I COMPLETELY understand ND's with it.  The weapon has absolutely no margin for error. 

I don't like Glocks, but I cannot understate the effectiveness of the design.  I mention Glocks because anyone doing research can readily find computer animations that clearly show how all of the parts work together.  The sear cruciform is basically locked in the frame channel until the trigger safety is disabled.  The striker is cocked around 60% with trigger movement doing the rest and sear engagement is pretty robust.  Sear reset is automatic.  I'm not sure the weapon CAN fire unless the trigger is pulled.  If the striker shoe or cruciform breaks off, there is a striker safety, PLUS the striker is under limited tension.  If either of these breaks, it is immediately apparent upon inspection.  Yes, in the early 90's Glock had a recall because of faulty fire-control components.  They could go off upon loading.  Different animal a long time ago....     

While the P10 looks completely different inside, the parts work together to do the same things as the Glock.  The trigger bar/sear is blocked in place by a frame pin until the trigger safety is disengaged.  The striker is not fully cocked and there is a striker safety.  The disconnector automatically resets the trigger bar.  If the striker shoe or sear surface breaks off, I can see the striker releasing, but like the Glock, its only partially cocked and the remaining safety should intercept.  The weapon will be disabled, but it shouldn't fire.  If it did, the cause would be readily apparent upon inspection.  Broken striker shoe...Rounded or broken sear (assuming the striker safety is disabled).

As an examiner, I have had to describe the functioning of the weapon, how the parts work together and whether or not they are functioning normally.  Yes, I'm a CZ fanboy but I did ALOT of research before buying a P10.  I wanted a Glock that didn't feel like a Glock.  While I still prefer the 75 actions, like the Glocks, I cannot understate the effectiveness of the P10 design.  I did see a fellow "demonstrate" on the internet how a P10's striker safety is "deficient" but his trick only works if you manually pull the striker past where it normally rides and release it with the slide off.  Again, some parts would have to break for this safety to HAVE to work.  On the other hand, I haven't actually experimented to see how far you'd have to tension the striker and actually try to set off a primed case with the slide off...can't think of a reason.   

Absent of some definitive evidence leading to a hardware failure...can't explain.  Sorry.   

             

         
"A person must have a certain amount of intelligent ignorance to get anywhere."

Charles Kettering

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7578
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2023, 09:12:44 PM »
Based upon the P10 design, I cannot explain how a P10 would fire "uncommanded."  In my opinion, there would have to be broken parts AND something beyond my understanding would have to happen.  A coat string in the holster is another matter. 

I am a senior LEO in a command position and I have seen all manners of firearms related issues on both military and LE ranges.  During my career, I've conducted forensic weapon examinations and testified to same in court or as part of IA investigations.  My testimony has helped put murderers in prison AND my investigations have seen a few of officers disciplined for negligence.  Thankfully I haven't had to deal with firearms related LEO criminal misconduct within my organization. 

I have seen weapons malfunction.  I've seen weapons go off out-of-battery and blow apart.  I've seen rifles and pistols slam fire.  I've seen coat drawstrings, shirttails and all manner of things get get hung up in in trigger guards/holsters.  I've seen cops and military members do some really stupid stuff.  All of these issues had causes that could be explained. 

A missing spring in a AR hammer will cause the hammer pin to walk and the gun will slam fire upon loading.  Bad ammo, fouled chambers can lead to KB's.  Weak springs, worn parts, even a primer stirrup can render a weapon inoperable. These are hardware issues. 

Poor weapon handling, drawstrings in your holster, failing to put the cam pin in an AR bolt carrier..... etc, are software issues.  In 28 years, I have seen many more software issues.  I'm also not personally immune from software issues.     

I'm not in the habit of badmouthing designs, but someone alluded to the "uncommanded fire" reports with the P320's.  In 2015, I led a team to evaluate the 1st Gen P320 as a potential duty weapon.  Aside from magazine issues, that design did not incorporate a disconnector (mechanism that would prevent out of battery sear release).  Because the 1st gen triggers basically reset on their own without slide actuation, it was possible to hold the trigger in a manner to facilitate sear override that would either result in a dead striker (with a slight primer indention) or the weapon would slam fire.  We didn't get around to dropping it before we reported our findings to Sig and moved on to a different weapon.  Unlike the P10, the P320's striker is 100% cocked and the sear interfaces very similar to the way a bolt action rifle does.  Compared to a Glock or P10, the sear surface is pretty small with a very small amount of metal of the sear interfacing with a small surface on the striker.  Because of this design, the success of the system is highly dependent upon the tolerance between the slide and the slide rails.  Pull the trigger on one that has seen a 1000 or so rounds and you can watch the slide move up when the trigger is pressed.  Add the fact that there is no trigger safety, a very light trigger and a very short distance the trigger must be depressed before the striker safety is disengaged - essentially the weapon is like carrying around a cocked P226 with all of the slack taken out of the trigger.  I can understand how a 1st Generation P320 can go off in a holster, particularly with rough handling. With the 2nd Gen ones, with the secondary sear surface and the disconnectior issue resolved, its harder to explain related to the hardware.  Because of the lack of trigger safety and my analogy to a cocked P226,  I COMPLETELY understand ND's with it.  The weapon has absolutely no margin for error. 

I don't like Glocks, but I cannot understate the effectiveness of the design.  I mention Glocks because anyone doing research can readily find computer animations that clearly show how all of the parts work together.  The sear cruciform is basically locked in the frame channel until the trigger safety is disabled.  The striker is cocked around 60% with trigger movement doing the rest and sear engagement is pretty robust.  Sear reset is automatic.  I'm not sure the weapon CAN fire unless the trigger is pulled.  If the striker shoe or cruciform breaks off, there is a striker safety, PLUS the striker is under limited tension.  If either of these breaks, it is immediately apparent upon inspection.  Yes, in the early 90's Glock had a recall because of faulty fire-control components.  They could go off upon loading.  Different animal a long time ago....     

While the P10 looks completely different inside, the parts work together to do the same things as the Glock.  The trigger bar/sear is blocked in place by a frame pin until the trigger safety is disengaged.  The striker is not fully cocked and there is a striker safety.  The disconnector automatically resets the trigger bar.  If the striker shoe or sear surface breaks off, I can see the striker releasing, but like the Glock, its only partially cocked and the remaining safety should intercept.  The weapon will be disabled, but it shouldn't fire.  If it did, the cause would be readily apparent upon inspection.  Broken striker shoe...Rounded or broken sear (assuming the striker safety is disabled).

As an examiner, I have had to describe the functioning of the weapon, how the parts work together and whether or not they are functioning normally.  Yes, I'm a CZ fanboy but I did ALOT of research before buying a P10.  I wanted a Glock that didn't feel like a Glock.  While I still prefer the 75 actions, like the Glocks, I cannot understate the effectiveness of the P10 design.  I did see a fellow "demonstrate" on the internet how a P10's striker safety is "deficient" but his trick only works if you manually pull the striker past where it normally rides and release it with the slide off.  Again, some parts would have to break for this safety to HAVE to work.  On the other hand, I haven't actually experimented to see how far you'd have to tension the striker and actually try to set off a primed case with the slide off...can't think of a reason.   

Absent of some definitive evidence leading to a hardware failure...can't explain.  Sorry.   

             

       

Reading this made me think about the FNS pistols.  They had some issues with those going off at a time/place when the trigger had not been pulled and the gun had been in the holster for some period of time.

If I remember what I read correctly it happened when an officer pulled the trigger and for some reason the gun didn't fire.  Due to the design of the striker the striker would stay fully cocked and ready to fire.  Pulling the pistol from the holster and setting it on a shelf in the locker could fire it.  A hard strike to the pistol could fire it.  FN never ran across this scenario in all the testing they did (as with anything else, operators can/will do things engineers/technical people never could imagine/think of doing during lab/field tests.  FN ended up redesigning the striker (then got into striker failures/breakage).  The FNS went away and the 509 was introduced.

What happened with the FNS was when the muzzle was pushed up against a surface enough to move the slide slightly out of battery before the trigger was pulled (like in a fight when the officer feels it is necessary to pull the pistol, shove it up against a person and pull the trigger) the gun would not fire because it was slightly out of battery.  But the striker stayed cocked on the edge of release.  The bump/shock would allow the striker to jump off that last tiny contact point with the sear and fire - even though the trigger had been release minutes or hours before.  That might be because the FNS really, really is double action.  If you take it apart the sear doesn't just move the striker a tiny amount as it pivots due to the trigger pull, the trigger pull moves the sear rearward a good amount before the sear ever starts to pivot.  As the sear moves rearward it futher cocks the striker to a much great degree than on the Glock, M&P, etc. type striker fired pistols.  It's wild looking but it works.  As good as an Apex trigger kit can tune up an M&P one can only get an FNS trigger pull down to around 5.5 to 6 lbs. or so - because it has to move the striker much further against the resistance of the striker spring compressing.  Imagine a double trigger on a nice European rifle.  You pull the first trigger and it is a first stage.  When you put your finger on the 2nd trigger it takes very little movement/effort to fire the rifle.

Can a P10 do that?  If you move the slide out of battery and pull the trigger and it doesn't fire, can the striker and sear engagement be so "on the edge" and the striker block already moved and hung in the firing position so that a bump/smack will release the striker?  I really don't know.  Don't own one.  But I'm curious.

It the reported event happened there is a reason.  Something odd/different happened that hasn't happened before. 
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2023, 03:44:08 AM »
I don't think we have enough info to assess what happened:
- approximately what year did your dept acquire these guns or this gun if known?
- what ammo were you running?  Remember that these guns are made to shoot all 9mm ammo, including NATO varieties w/ hard primers
- how long had the chambered round been in your pistol? If primer was potentially dented but not ignited at an earlier point in time it requires even less force to ignite than an unblemished one.
- what safariland holster were you running?  And did the holster grip/tension into the slide or frame instead of fully seating against something on the front face of the frame of the gun -- did the front face of the slide instead bottom out on/in the holster?  What retention device, if any?
- did anyone fully disassemble the gun or disassemble the striker assembly other than the factory, such as a department armorer new to this weapon system?

Insofar as this gun -- the P10f is the biggest and heaviest variant of the p10 (plus the weaponlight) all that mass combined w/ a unique pistol holster interface AND especially combined w/ this gun's (fairly controversial if not minimally functional) firing pin block/striker safety, I can certainly see how this could have happened, at least hypothetically...

The whole striker mechanism moving forward as @ 1:10 here could fire ammo w/ soft primers when combined with the mass of the gun and the gym bag could have potentially fired the weapon while in the holster: https://youtu.be/EhQ_9Mf244c?t=69
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhQ_9Mf244c

And here's a vid of the firing pin block's spring being incorrectly installed from the factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCz_GjAFkx0

There's a thread on reddit discussing in exhaustive detail that also references a thread here that reflects how CZ says this should work if installed correctly -- Redditor is arguing it doesn't work as advertised: https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/cqshim/psa_the_cz_p10c_appears_to_have_no_functional/

I think this finding is pretty "forum auto-redacted word" (apparently as it can also be a swear word), but is properly defined as "strongly suggesting guilt or error" that a -- test on your own at your own risk and to be fully clear, I am not recommending you do this test  (but if I had a P10, I probably would if only for my own peace of mind -- but then there's the ol' "curiosity killed the cat").

I highly doubt the OP/officer still has this weapon in his possession, but if he does, I'd be curious to see photos of internals and his results from similar tests...

LASTLY, I'm really disappointed and frankly shocked to see the hostility here to the OP and this thread...  Seems extremely out-of-character for this forum, especially for what could be a life and career-altering incident for the OP.

Real life testing always finds things overlooked or misunderstood/unanticipated by engineers -- for instance, just look at all the Hyundais and Kias currently being stolen w/ just a USB cord...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 04:00:32 AM by RSR »

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2023, 05:11:40 AM »
Those vids show 2 guys desperately trying to claim a defect in the guns by manipulating the firing mechanism while the gun is field stripped. The system doesn't behave that way when properly assembled.
There's simply no evidence of an issue like this with the P10 line. A single post by someone who refuses to provide KEY details gets us no where. If the OP's claim is valid he should be providing ALL relevant information and he should be interacting with the thread he started here.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2023, 06:42:15 AM »
Those vids show 2 guys desperately trying to claim a defect in the guns by manipulating the firing mechanism while the gun is field stripped. The system doesn't behave that way when properly assembled.
There's simply no evidence of an issue like this with the P10 line. A single post by someone who refuses to provide KEY details gets us no where. If the OP's claim is valid he should be providing ALL relevant information and he should be interacting with the thread he started here.

Not accurate to the first.  And completely off-base to video 2 which is a follow-up to a different vid where folks pointed out in that vid's comments that his firing pin block's spring was installed incorrectly at the factory -- and he's illustrating that and also discussing the firing pin block's function. 
And pearl clutching isn't helpful.

Read the reddit thread, emphasis mine in excerpts below -- youtube appears to have nixxed the vids:
Quote
Test #1 – Slide only:

To determine the effectiveness of the firing pin block, the slide was removed from the pistol and placed in a vise padded with a towel. The striker was pulled back to varying distances and released after verifying the striker block had traveled to its full extent of engagement. At each distance the striker was pulled back, even very small distances, the striker was able to easily overcome the block and simply push it out of the way. Video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKIUpTDbn6o

Test #2 – Primed Case:

An empty 9mm cartridge primed with a CCI primer was placed in the barrel, which was installed into the slide with the recoil spring holding it in place. The striker was pulled back to varying distances and released after verifying the striker block had traveled to its full extent of engagement. At small distances, the cartridge case did not fire. At any distance greater than about 75% of the striker’s maximum travel, the primer ignited almost every time. Video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezFV4yWMNpk


Conclusions:

The firing pin block does not appear to serve as a functional stop to the travel of the striker. At best, it slightly reduces the velocity of the striker before impacting the primer. Several things seem to be contributing to this problem. Firstly, the engagement surface between the striker block and the shoulder on the striker is extremely small. This shoulder on the striker has a small radius at its root (likely necessary for the MIM process and to reduce stress concentrations) and this radius serves as a ramp to push the striker block out of the way. The striker can also rotate a bit in the striker housing, making an inconsistent engagement between the striker and the block.

It should be kept in mind that this is not the only safety system on the P-10 series of pistols. Even without a functional firing pin safety, the chances of an accidental discharge caused by mechanical failure is very low. The trigger safety and drop safety, in my opinion, still make this a relatively safe design.Even in a theoretical case in which the striker became detached from the trigger bar (due to disengagement or breakage) the striker is only half-cocked or less when the trigger is forward. In my testing, the striker had to be drawn further to the rear to set off the primer. Softer primers, such as Federal, may have been set off closer to half cock, but these were not tested.

Despite the fact that the P-10 is likely safe, these conclusions have led me to make the decision to relegate this pistol to range use only. I would not feel comfortable carrying a pistol with what I consider to be a defective safety system.

To note here "Even without a functional firing pin safety, the chances of an accidental discharge caused by mechanical failure is very low" -- LOW is not ZERO chance.

and

Quote
EDIT 3


For those who are still skeptical, user Rin_Rans_reddit went to the trouble to create an "armorers plate" by cutting the bottom portion of his slide cover off. In his video you can see the ENTIRE pistol assembled, there is nothing locking the firing pin block in place - spring tension only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JcV_w-kxx8

*To be clear: excerpt immediately above means disassembled slide and assembled slide function is the same as it relates to the firing pin block.

Believe what you want -- YMMV. 

I don't believe the OP's post here was a troll.  And I don't believe the reddit thread is an elaborate ruse -- firearm redditors (being mostly autists on the gun front vs predominantly neckbeards elsewhere on the site) often have interesting and generally accurate insights.

And for the safety issues like this, I believe everyone's best served to be open to the possibility that there was at least a design/assembly defect to or mechanical failure of the OP's gun -- that may potentially affect others -- and that may necessitate increase safety measures until there are definitive answers to the cause, instead of rampant and largely uninformed speculation that seems to be amounting from most here as "blaming the victim."

I'm genuinely interested in "what could have made this happen", which yes, could include user error, but any list is incomplete that includes only user error. 

And since user error is already on the list, does anyone else see any other potential causes?

Remember -- Sig didn't address their P320 drop safety issues -- that I don't think anyone can reasonably deny at this point existed, Sig effectively admitted into why they reduced the weight of their trigger in their updated mechanism -- until after LE agencies had withdrawn their P320s from service, department-wide, at least in part due to this drop safety issue: https://youtu.be/VmwpkJuIR00?t=929
https://youtu.be/VmwpkJuIR00
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 07:27:28 AM by RSR »

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2023, 07:21:58 AM »
Till real proof of defect is shown and until the OP provides more detail this thread is as useless as well those things on a boar hog.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2023, 07:31:07 AM »
Till real proof of defect is shown and until the OP provides more detail this thread is as useless as well those things on a boar hog.

He's a school cop/SRO, not a gunsmith, armorer, engineer, or forensic firearm examiner...  There's a limit to and very short remaining list of the add'l relevant info that he will be able to provide.  He had a shocking if not traumatic incident and is looking for some answers from folks who might know more about this firearm's operation than him. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 07:43:53 AM by RSR »

Offline Claymore504

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1082
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2023, 08:23:19 AM »
Well, I would think at this point, the department took his pistol and is looking into it. Would be interested to know of they have contacted CZ to send an SME to look at it. Also, would be good to know if the gun had been taken apart and out back together recently? Had it been modified in any way?

Offline Auslander

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2023, 11:08:53 AM »
Till real proof of defect is shown and until the OP provides more detail this thread is as useless as well those things on a boar hog.

He's a school cop/SRO, not a gunsmith, armorer, engineer, or forensic firearm examiner...  There's a limit to and very short remaining list of the add'l relevant info that he will be able to provide.  He had a shocking if not traumatic incident and is looking for some answers from folks who might know more about this firearm's operation than him.

RSR

For the record, I agree with you.  The only reason I posted was the "Mall Cop" comment.  I left another forum years ago because of vitriol posted to a question I asked on their LEO thread section.

To paraphrase my answer and maybe reflect the consensus of the tread; Based of what I know of the platform, from a mechanical standpoint, I cannot explain how a P10 would go off uncommanded in a holster.

That doesn't mean I am discounting the possibility.  If it were my agency, I would be nervous as a pig at a BBQ.  If there is a problem with one gun, there could be a problem with all.  With the current environment, LEO's are leaving at a breakneck pace.  I don't need to give another reason by discounting the problem or rushing to throw someone under a bus.  I would however, strive to figure out what did occur.

Its a fact that major weapons manufacturers have had problem with their designs.  Each was discovered by someone somewhere.  I personally would press for an independent SME examination of the weapon.  The manufacturer has commercial interest that may conflict with the agency's.  Likewise, someone at the agency recommend the weapon.  They may want to protect their interests.  If the gun was the chief's baby, he's not going to like having his baby called ugly.  This is a CZ enthusiast forum....same issue.     

It may be that a definitive cause cannot be determined.  A raised primer on a round that has a long OAL could look to be in battery and could potentially go off uncommanded.  May not be probable, but its possible.  Wobbly is the guy to comment on that.  Figuring that out after the fact may be bleep near impossible.  Likewise a coat string in the holster would be darned difficult to ascertain.  I would be hesitant to mention, but I've seen it happen on the range.  Occam's Razor and all that.....I can postulate all day long... But I'm off today and have my P10S apart as I type.  Heck, I bought the thing because I had issues with a RAMI and no longer trusted it.  Easy with a personal weapon, but I would hate to think I had to carry a duty weapon I didn't trust.

I also know from hard earned personal experience that if you do not always treat a weapon with respect, it WILL teach you a lesson.

Like you and Parabellum mentioned, we are not going to be able to skin this particular cat with the information presented.             

       

   
"A person must have a certain amount of intelligent ignorance to get anywhere."

Charles Kettering

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Cz p10F fires in a holster
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2023, 06:03:21 PM »
RSR

For the record, I agree with you.  The only reason I posted was the "Mall Cop" comment.  I left another forum years ago because of vitriol posted to a question I asked on their LEO thread section.

To paraphrase my answer and maybe reflect the consensus of the tread; Based of what I know of the platform, from a mechanical standpoint, I cannot explain how a P10 would go off uncommanded in a holster.

That doesn't mean I am discounting the possibility.  If it were my agency, I would be nervous as a pig at a BBQ.  If there is a problem with one gun, there could be a problem with all.  With the current environment, LEO's are leaving at a breakneck pace.  I don't need to give another reason by discounting the problem or rushing to throw someone under a bus.  I would however, strive to figure out what did occur.

Its a fact that major weapons manufacturers have had problem with their designs.  Each was discovered by someone somewhere.  I personally would press for an independent SME examination of the weapon.  The manufacturer has commercial interest that may conflict with the agency's.  Likewise, someone at the agency recommend the weapon.  They may want to protect their interests.  If the gun was the chief's baby, he's not going to like having his baby called ugly.  This is a CZ enthusiast forum....same issue.     

It may be that a definitive cause cannot be determined.  A raised primer on a round that has a long OAL could look to be in battery and could potentially go off uncommanded.  May not be probable, but its possible.  Wobbly is the guy to comment on that.  Figuring that out after the fact may be bleep near impossible.  Likewise a coat string in the holster would be darned difficult to ascertain.  I would be hesitant to mention, but I've seen it happen on the range.  Occam's Razor and all that.....I can postulate all day long... But I'm off today and have my P10S apart as I type.  Heck, I bought the thing because I had issues with a RAMI and no longer trusted it.  Easy with a personal weapon, but I would hate to think I had to carry a duty weapon I didn't trust.

I also know from hard earned personal experience that if you do not always treat a weapon with respect, it WILL teach you a lesson.

Like you and Parabellum mentioned, we are not going to be able to skin this particular cat with the information presented.             

Largely if not wholly agree w/ your response -- and to be clear, I appreciate your thoughtful and informed responses in this thread.

And my compliant about the ad hominen attack of the OP/shooting-the-messenger logical fallacy wasn't directed to you.

Me personally -- I still think the CZ P10 is still in what's equivalent to the first model year of a car, and I, for one, adhere to the advice of "never buy the first model year."  So less likely but nevertheless possible issues/kinks/parts failures may still arise, especially considering how few rounds/cycles of operations most consumers and LE put their firearms through in a year versus automobiles...  I'm willing to consider all possibilities.  I don't have a P10 yet, so no dog in the fight...  And generally speaking, I much prefer DA/SA guns to striker-fired -- and that's even though Glocks shoot for me very well, just don't point naturally (but that's largely a training issue)... I would nevertheless like to add a striker-fired CZ to few to my collection, which probably won't occur until Gen 2 upgrades (or Gen 1 recall/retrofits should one occur), and am, generally speaking, a CZ handgun fan. 

Also I'm genuinely curious as to why CZ went with this oddball and more complex firing pin block design -- was it a patent/royalty issue, an attempt to marginally and further improve the trigger, etc.?  Something to be said for K.I.S.S.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 06:07:31 PM by RSR »