Cz p10F fires in a holster

[RSR]

Well, I would think at this point, the department took his pistol and is looking into it. Would be interested to know of they have contacted CZ to send an SME to look at it. Also, would be good to know if the gun had been taken apart and out back together recently? Had it been modified in any way?

Yes, I included any known disassembly in the list of questions the OP should be able to answer...  I would think it'd be of benefit to the OP and consumers generally to have an subject matter expert not affiliated w/ CZ to at least initially examine it...  Don't know that I would trust CZ's findings given an inherent conflict-of-interest in pointing fingers anywhere but the firearm -- be it its assembly or design.  Nowadays, lawyers and court orders are often needed to force corporations to behave responsibly, if not also in good faith -- just look at East Palestine, Ohio...

I don't think we have enough info to assess what happened:
- approximately what year did your dept acquire these guns or this gun if known?
- what ammo were you running?  Remember that these guns are made to shoot all 9mm ammo, including NATO varieties w/ hard primers
- how long had the chambered round been in your pistol? If primer was potentially dented but not ignited at an earlier point in time it requires even less force to ignite than an unblemished one.
- what safariland holster were you running?  And did the holster grip/tension into the slide or frame instead of fully seating against something on the front face of the frame of the gun -- did the front face of the slide instead bottom out on/in the holster?  What retention device, if any?
- did anyone fully disassemble the gun or disassemble the striker assembly other than the factory, such as a department armorer new to this weapon system?

[Sigman1393]

Thank you all for the videos showing the striker and safety block issues with the P10 system.  I recently found out that the agency I work for had send back some P10-C to CZ for that same issue several years back before I was employed with this agency.  I have been in Law Enforcement for over 30 years handling all sorts of weapon systems pistols both revolver and semi-auto, shotguns, and lastly the patrol rifle.  I am a state firearms instructor but not an armor and in all my years of handling weapons this had never happened to me. Nor had I heard of this occurring.  That is why I registered on this forum to see if anyone else had experienced or heard of something like this occurring.  When I started with this agency I was issued this system as a duty weapon.  I had heard of CZ but never shot it nor worked with it until I started working at this agency.  I had no negative thoughts about the weapon at least not until I almost blow a hole in my leg with the weapon in the holster strapped down and some pressure on the grip set it off. Thank you all for the info and videos.  I am no longer carrying that weapon system, I am carrying my own weapon now and the system I have used for the majority of my LEO career, Sig Sauer.

[Johnny Chimpo]

I bet there was something in the trigger guard.  P-10s just simply don't go off by themselves.

Ironic the OP went back to Sig Sauer...........

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Thank you all for the videos showing the striker and safety block issues with the P10 system.  I recently found out that the agency I work for had send back some P10-C to CZ for that same issue several years back before I was employed with this agency.  I have been in Law Enforcement for over 30 years handling all sorts of weapon systems pistols both revolver and semi-auto, shotguns, and lastly the patrol rifle.  I am a state firearms instructor but not an armor and in all my years of handling weapons this had never happened to me. Nor had I heard of this occurring.  That is why I registered on this forum to see if anyone else had experienced or heard of something like this occurring.  When I started with this agency I was issued this system as a duty weapon.  I had heard of CZ but never shot it nor worked with it until I started working at this agency.  I had no negative thoughts about the weapon at least not until I almost blow a hole in my leg with the weapon in the holster strapped down and some pressure on the grip set it off. Thank you all for the info and videos.  I am no longer carrying that weapon system, I am carrying my own weapon now and the system I have used for the majority of my LEO career, Sig Sauer.

Never heard of this happening with all the controversy surrounding the SIG P320??? You live in another dimension? I can't even begin to give you the benefit of the doubt from here on out. 4 pinochios for you! TROLL ON!

[Togmaster]

Don't feed the troll.

[Catfishmoon]

At this point I also am skeptical of the claim being made and the unwillingness of the OP to provide specific details of the where, when, ect this occured. Since there doesn't seem to be another single report of a similar occurrence, it seems reasonable to ask the OP very specific questions, to which at least until now, the answers are being avoided.

[Claymore504]

yeah this is starting to make me wonder about the OP. Been an LEO for 30 years and never heard of a handgun going off in a duty holster? As someone mentioned above, thier are still reports about this with the P320.

[RSR]

Never heard of this happening with all the controversy surrounding the SIG P320??? You live in another dimension? I can't even begin to give you the benefit of the doubt from here on out. 4 pinochios for you! TROLL ON!

Don't feed the troll.

Looks like you two are being the trolls -- 30 year LEO means a DA/SA Sig, so either P228/229 or the P226.  The P320 hasn't even been around for a decade, and the P250+P320 is only about 15 years so impossible to be a majority.

Until recently and due largely to Texas DPS selecting/running them, the Sig P226 in .357 Sig was one of the most common weapon systems among Texas LE agencies.

[RSR]

yeah this is starting to make me wonder about the OP. Been an LEO for 30 years and never heard of a handgun going off in a duty holster? As someone emntioned above, thier are still reports about this with the P320.

Reading comprehension = he's specifically talking about a firing pin block failing to function.  Sig P320's issue was not with the firing pin block, it was due to the trigger moving during impact which deactivated the firing pin block.  CZ P10's firing pin block is also an oddball and novel design instead of the tried and true plunger version everyone else is using and has been since at least the early 1980s (have vintage Berettas using a similar design w/ early 1980s production dates)...

[RSR]

At this point I also am skeptical of the claim being made and the unwillingness of the OP to provide specific details of the where, when, ect this occured. Since there doesn't seem to be another single report of a similar occurrence, it seems reasonable to ask the OP very specific questions, to which at least until now, the answers are being avoided.

I'm surprised he posted anything -- usually union reps advise to say nothing nor do anything that could come back to haunt you in an investigation or in a court of law.  Were I him as a LE officer, I wouldn't have said a thing or made this post. 

Me personally, I still believe this is a legit post and his version of what he thinks happened.  Doesn't read like a scheme. 
But is it possible he's looking for something to cast blame on?  Yeah...  But it's also possible that this CZ malfunctioned -- and that other guns may experience the same issue in the future causing even greater injury -- and also possible that something other than what he thought happened is what actually happened.   YMMV.

[RSR]

*Just remembered this article and after some searching found it -- very interesting history of Texas state LEO handguns, up to 1999 when this article was written: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/TEXAS+DPS+GOES+TO+THE+.357+SIG%3A.-a056219526

Worth reading the whole thing...  But just included the testing section in the excerpt below -- some charts at end of article at the above link as well:

The Texas Dept. of Public Safety was among the first police departments to adopt the S1G P226 in .357 SIG caliber. They solved the stopping power and tactical penetration problems with the .45 ACP 230-grain JHP by going to the equivalent of the .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP. Handgun qualifying scores went up. Trooper confidence is at an all-time high.
[...]
In 1991, the Texas DPS went "back" to the .45 ACP. This was a time of widespread police transition from the six-shot revolver to the high-capacity auto pistol. Beginning, in 1990, DPS Academy firearms instructor Reeves Jungkind conducted testing on a number of pistols including Sigarms P220, P226 and P228 and similar pistols from Beretta, Glock, Smith & Wesson, Ruger and Colt.

The DPS was looking for a reliable and simple-to-operate double-action auto pistol. After extensively firing all the makes, including accuracy testing, the DPS adopted the Sigarms series of pistols. These 1990 tests are important because the DPS did not extensively retest pistols when they adopted the .357 SIG cartridge. At the time of the caliber upgrade, Sigarms was the only pistol maker offering the .357 SIG cartridge. In January 1991, TLE Field Firearms Instructors went to the Academy for a three-day transition school. They, in turn, returned to the field to transition in-service Troopers. Academy Trooper recruit classes began training with the Sigarms pistols in 1993.

Troopers were free to select either the .45 ACP P220 or. the 9mm P226. The duty load for the .45 ACP was the CCI-Speer 200-grain "flying ash can" JHP custom loaded for the DPS by Ultramax. The 9mm duty load was the Winchester 147-grain OSM JHP. In 1993, the DPS adopted the 230-grain Ranger SXT (Black Talon) in .45 ACP and the 147-grain Ranger SXT (Black Talon) in 9mm. Given a choice between the bigger bullets of the .45 ACP and more bullets from the 9mm, the vast majority of Troopers selected the .45 ACP. During this period, 78 percent of the shootings involved the .45 ACP while just 21 percent involved the 9mm. Very few shootings involved the .357 Magnum, which is still carried by some Troopers.

In the period from 1991 to 1994, the DPS became dissatisfied with the stopping power from the .45 ACP. Again, the 9mm was seldom used. The DPS didn't feel like they got the performance from the .45 ACP that they should. Over half of the DPS shootings involve auto glass and car bodies. While the 230-grain .45 ACP loads have advertised velocities up to 900 fps, the actual velocity from duty guns is more like 815 fps. In the final analysis, the DPS concluded the .45 ACP simply did not have enough velocity for the diameter to reliably get inside a vehicle. The poor performance of the .45 ACP after tactical barriers is easy to explain. The barriers rob precious velocity from an already low-velocity bullet. The two layers of sheet steel used in the FBI protocol lowers the bullet velocity by 75 to 100 fps. The single layer of windshield glass lowers the velocity by 400 fps.

In a case involving two tactical barriers, following a pursuit, a Trooper fired through the door of a van and struck the driver wearing a leather vest. The result was no bullet expansion and no immediate reaction from the violator even with excellent shot placement striking vital organs.

The DPS was also getting poor bullet performance even when vehicles were not involved. In one case, a man with a hatchet attacked a DPS Trooper during a traffic stop, forcing the Trooper to shoot. The .45 ACP 230-grain JHP struck six business cards and some money in a shirt pocket and plugged up. The bullet had zero expansion. The violator walked back to his car, got in, sat down and collapsed.

One shooting, however, drove the DPS to aggressively and urgently solve the stopping power problem. During a traffic stop, the driver attempted to disarm the Trooper. The Trooper retained control of his pistol and fired one time at muzzle contact distances. The 230-grain JHP again failed to expand and have a rapid effect.

DPS officials went to the Winchester factory and were able to duplicate most of the expansion and performance failures in the lab. This, in turn, drove the DPS to do their own gelatin testing to solve the problem. Winchester tried to help with their +P version of the .45 ACP 230-grain Ranger SXT developed for the Texas DPS. The muzzle velocity rose from 815 fps to 890 fps.

The DPS also turned to other ammo makers for their solutions. CCI-Speer developed a version of their .45 ACP 200-grain Gold Dot specifically for the DPS. In fact, this 995 fps Gold Dot +P is still an approved load for Texas Rangers using the .45 ACP, in addition to the 230-grain Ranger SXT. The real solution, however, was a change in caliber.

In April 1994, the DPS Academy staff began a long series of barrier gelatin tests on a variety of 230-grain .45 ACP and 147-grain 9mm loads. This included the CCI-Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger SXT (Talon), Federal Hydra-Shok and Remington Golden Saber. The DPS discovered that all the subsonic hollowpoints worked exactly as designed. They found all of the .45 ACP loads passed all of the FBI protocol tests. Yet the same loads that successful under at were this test method produced unsuccessful results in actual DPS shootings.

In early 1994, Sigarms and Federal announced their new caliber, the .357 SIG. The new load was a 125-grain JHP at 1,350 fps from a 3.9-inch SigP229. It would top 1,400 fps from a 4.4-inch P226. This was almost an exact match for the legendary .357 Magnum, except it produced less felt recoil. Neither the vehicle nor the violator can tell if a .355/.357 diameter 125-grain JHP at 1,400 fps was fired from a Sig P226 pistol or a S&W 586 revolver.

In March 1996, CCI-Speer put on one of their famous side-by-side FBI protocol ammo ballistics demonstrations for the Houston Police. The demo included 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP calibers in a wide variety of light, medium and heavy bullets. Significantly, the test also involved the .357 SIG caliber with the CCI 125-grain Gold Dot and the Federal 125-grain JHP.

The DPS liked what they saw, especially the .357 SIG Gold Dot. What this FBI protocol did not measure was the effect of dumping over 500 foot-pounds of energy in the target. The .45 ACP 23 0-grain JHPs that caused the search for more effective ammo transferred just 370 foot-pounds. Police duty ammo should indeed "pass" the FBI protocol, but there is more to it than just that.

The DPS Academy staff returned to Austin and promptly refired the tests focusing on the .357 SIG caliber. Except this time, they used the .357 Magnum caliber as a benchmark. The Winchester .35 7 Magnum 125-grain JHP averaged 1,424 fps from a four-inch revolver. The DPS fired the .357 Magnum into bare gelatin, heavily clothed gelatin, gelatin after steel and gelatin after auto glass. This gave the DPS a goal.

The .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP penetrated from 13 inches to 14 inches in all these tests. The bullets had a recovered diameter of just .47 inch to .52 inch and a 62 percent retained weight. With these numbers, the DPS had converted success on the street into gelatin results. They wanted their next duty load to duplicate the penetration and energy transfer of the .357 Magnum except have a better retained weight. They tested all of the available .357 SIG loads at the time including the 125grain Gold Dot, Federal 125-grain JHP and Hornady 124-grain XTP. The DPS began their testing with a 3.9-inch P229. Their final testing involved a 4.4-inch P226.

The return to the ballistics of the .357 Magnum raised issues about muzzle flash. They found the .357 SIG 125-grain Gold Dot produced a dark orange muzzle flash six to eight inches long and two to three inches in diameter. In comparison, the old .357 Magnum 125-grain JHPs produced a bright white flame up to 26 inches long and 14 inches in diameter. A smaller-diameter flash, and one that is orange or red instead of white, is less likely to interfere with the shooter's vision at night.

The DPS did not establish a minimum velocity or energy. Nor did they establish a minimum recovered bullet diameter. Instead, at each step along the way, they compared the available .357 SIG loads to' the Winchester .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP. The DPS adopted the FBI guidelines of 12 inches minimum penetration and 18 inches maximum. However, the overriding goal was to match the performance of the .357 Magnum with just one exception. The DPS wanted a higher retained weight. This was especially true of after-glass performance. The DPS did not want to see the jacket separate from the core. Depending on the bullet, the copper jacket is 15 to 22 percent of the total bullet weight. If the jacket is lost in the glass, the bullet weight goes down and the jacket's ability to control core expansion is lost. The result is poor gelatin penetration after glass.

On one occasion, the DPS Academy fired 34 different loads into gelatin. One of the loads was a .357 SIG 125-grain Gold Dot at 1,485 fps that penetrated 15.3 inches of bare gelatin. The bullet expanded to .61 caliber and had a 98 percent weight retention. The "comments" section of the DPS test summary told the real story: "Knocked gel block off the stand." That is the part missing from the FBI test protocol.

The DPS found the .357 SIG 125-grain Gold Dot produced penetration similar to the .357 Magnum against a variety of barriers. The .357 SIG bullet had a larger recovered diameter, a much greater retained weight and no jacket separation. The Texas DPS selected this Gold Dot as their duty load. The heavy, copper-plated jacket of the CCI Gold Dot simply will not separate from the core on impact with glass. The electro-chemical bond between the pure copper jacket and the .85 percent antimonial lead is as strong as the bond to the lead core itself. The first of the "bonded" police bullets, the Gold Dot is outstanding against car bodies and auto glass.

During the two-year period the DPS Academy tested the .357 SIG caliber, numerous Troopers from the field test-fired the pistol. The clear consensus was the Sig P226 in .357 SIG produced less felt recoil than the .357 Magnum from the S&W 586 and less felt recoil than the .45 ACP from the Sig P220. The felt recoil was more like a 9mm 124-grain +P JHP.

During this time, the DPS looked at the .40 S&W caliber and tested all the duty-oriented loads from the 155-grain to 180-grain JHP. However, the DPS .had two concerns with the .40 S&W First, no clear and dominant choice of load existed. The FBI used a 165-grain Medium Velocity JHP, the U.S. Border Patrol used a 155-grain JHP, while some Highway Patrols used a 155-grain JHP and others used a 180-grain JHP. The .40 S&W 180-grain load had the same low velocity as a 9mm 147-grain load. Velocity loss through tactical barriers was one of the biggest problems. The .40 S&W 155-grain load was promising at 1,200 fps but was unproven.

Even more of a concern was the lack of a track record with the .40 S&W caliber itself. In 1994, the .40 S&W had been around for just four years and only in one loading, the 180-grain JHP. The .357 Magnum had been around since 1935. The DPS themselves used the .357 Magnum from 1957 to 1991 and the 125-grain JHP since 1979.

A decisive approval for the new caliber and load came after an ammo demo at the DPS pistol range for the regional commanders. Four blocks of gelatin were fired, injected with dye and set side-by-side for review. The loads were the two current duty loads, the 9mm 147-grain Ranger SXT and the .45 ACP 230-grain Ranger SXT one control load, the .357 Magnum 12 5-grain JHP and the proposed load, the .357 SIG 125-grain Gold Dot.

In spite of the details of penetration and expansion, what convinced the DPS commanders was a direct comparison of the four wound profiles. Simply put, the .357 SIG most closely matched the .357 Magnum. The wound profile from the .357 SIG was far larger than either the 9mm or the .45 ACP and was like the old .357 Magnum, a profile that literally defined success.

The .357 SIG caliber and the new Sigarms P226 and P228 auto pistol were approved by the major Division chiefs and by then-Director of the Texas DPS, James Wilson. In February 1997, the DPS gave Sigarms an order for just over 3,000 Sig P226 .357 SIG caliber auto pistols, complete with Hogue grips and spare magazines.

Since the P226 in .357 SIG is so similar to the P226 in 9mm and the P220 in .45 ACP, only 150 rounds were needed during the transition course. This included 30 rounds for zeroing the sights, a 60-round, PPC course and a 60-round, 50-yard barricade course. The 50-yard shooting showed how similar the 25-yard and the 50-yard points of impact were.

In addition to matching the .357 Magnum ballistics, the .357 SIG had a number of other advantages. The first was a reduction in recoil compared to the .45 ACP. From a P226, the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP has a Power Factor of 173. This compares to a Power Factor of 190 for the .45 ACP 230-grain JHP from a P220.

This recoil reduction was instantly verified during the March 1997 Trooper recruit class at the DPS Academy. The class was together for the initial training with the S&W K22 .22 Long Rifle revolver and the S&W Model 586 revolver firing .38 Special ammo. They received the same introduction to the Sigarms auto pistols. Then the class was divided. into two groups.

One group trained with the Sig P220 in .45 ACP while the other trained with the Sig P226 in .357 SIG. Then both groups shot for score. At ranges from seven to 50 yards and 300 points possible, the .45 ACP group averaged 245 points. The .357 SIG group averaged 275 points. The .45 ACP group was then given .357 SIG pistols, and their scores promptly came up to match the first group.

The DPS Academy firearms staff credits three reasons for the greatly improved qualifying scores. First, less recoil. This Academy class settled the question of whether stiff recoil or an intense muzzle blast causes a shooter to flinch. The .45 ACP produces more recoil. The .357 SIG produces more blast. While the tendency of a shooter to flinch might be due to both, recoil and blast, the DPS clearly proved in this comparison the problem with low scores was the recoil from the .45 ACP.

The second factor in the improved scores is the flatter trajectory of the .357 SIG bullet. At nearly 1,400 fps, the 125-grain JHP shoots to the same point of aim out to 50 yards. With the slower and heavier .45 ACP bullet, the shooter has to hold over the point of impact from six to 12 inches out to 50 yards.

The third factor in the improved scores comes from increased confidence. This is tough to measure but easy to see when it is there and obvious when it is missing. Even though the .45 ACP had a macho reputation as the legendary big bore, the DPS Troopers had lost confidence in the .45 ACP in just three years due to its poor performance. Troopers now have confidence in their sidearm, and in fact, a real sense of pride.

Another advantage of the .357 SIG Caliber is outstanding feed reliability due to the bottleneck cartridge design. The DPS Academy staff found the P226 with the .357 SIG cartridge would reliably cycle even when the shooter did not lock his wrists or when it was fired one-handed with a low grip. In the first Academy class to be trained on the .357 SIG, Trooper recruits fired a total of 300,000 rounds without a single stoppage of any kind for any reason.

The Texas DPS has had four shootings with the .357 SIG since its adoption in 1997. In every single case, the load instantly stopped the hostile actions.

Some departments select ammo based primarily on how accurate the load is. The DPS, instead, know that the handgun is far more accurate than any shooter can hold. Other departments select ammo based on who else is using the ammo. The DPS, instead, did their own testing to meet their own needs and adopted a caliber almost no other agency at the time was using. The DPS, unlike some departments, selected their ammo based exclusively on wound ballistics. The DPS had a problem in actual shootings with the .45 ACP 230-grain JHP. They solved the problem with the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP.

Every police armorer and every police firearms instructor truly wants to equip their officers with the "best" duty caliber and load. The Texas DPS has. Don't mess with Texas.

Again RTWT: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/TEXAS+DPS+GOES+TO+THE+.357+SIG%3A.-a056219526

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

RSR as you said in an earlier post "believe what you want" He's getting from you just what he wants. I believe he's a LIAR. Every time he replies he adds more creds to his bio to up the ante. Were this real he'd come clean and lay all the facts out for all too see. I think we should remember impersonating an officer is a crime any place you go even if you don't name the agency. But hey you run with what feels good.
Does equipment fail? Yes absolutely but I need to see real evidence not hearsay. Equipment does not just fail because it wants to there's a specific reason it happens. Tires don't just "blow out" there's a specific cause. Guns don't just go off there's a specific cause. Show me some real evidence.
The rollout of the P10C was anything but stellar but to date there's been no evidence of what he claims. He claims other guns failed the same way in his "agency: and were sent back so if this is true what was the disposition? If this is true these failures would not be unique to his agency and others would be having them. If someone is going to make claims like this they should be prepared to prove them.

[M1A4ME]

RSR as you said in an earlier post "believe what you want" He's getting from you just what he wants. I believe he's a LIAR. Every time he replies he adds more creds to his bio to up the ante. Were this real he'd come clean and lay all the facts out for all too see. I think we should remember impersonating an officer is a crime any place you go even if you don't name the agency. But hey you run with what feels good.
Does equipment fail? Yes absolutely but I need to see real evidence not hearsay. Equipment does not just fail because it wants to there's a specific reason it happens. Tires don't just "blow out" there's a specific cause. Guns don't just go off there's a specific cause. Show me some real evidence.
The rollout of the P10C was anything but stellar but to date there's been no evidence of what he claims. He claims other guns failed the same way in his "agency: and were sent back so if this is true what was the disposition? If this is true these failures would not be unique to his agency and others would be having them. If someone is going to make claims like this they should be prepared to prove them.

I would think multiple guns returned to CZ for mods/updates for a safety issue would have resulted in a lot of recall notices.  Fixing the guns of one department won't save you from the lawsuits of other departments or the civilian gun owning world.

[Duke Nukem]

What I understood from my reading of the post is he was saying that they sent back the early production P-10C's to get the updated parts, not that there were any other malfunctions.

[gwes351]

What I understood from my reading of the post is he was saying that they sent back the early production P-10C's to get the updated parts, not that there were any other malfunctions.

Since I haven't been here all that long, i have to ask if I missed something about "early production P-10C's getting updated parts"?.  Was there (is there) in fact known parts upgrades (replacements) that CZ made to early P-10C's?   If so, how early, and what got upgraded?  I have 2 P-10C's (and a P-10S).