Minimum COAL-How short is too short?

[ReaperActual7]

I just got a brand new Shadow 2 and none of my existing loads would chamber at all as the bullets were engaging the rifling. Following the tutorial on this site I determined that the max OAL for my chamber is 1.056". Applying the .015" rule of thumb means that theoretically I should be loading to 1.041" COAL. This is substantially shorter than what any manual recommends yet is still above SAAMI spec.

Is my chamber way out of spec like I think it is, or are there other people here that load their rounds that short?

[Togmaster]

Trust your measurements.  Yes others load that short depending on the bullet.

[M1A4ME]

And reduce your powder charges and start working up your loads for it.

Deeper bullet = higher chamber pressures with the same powder charge.

A few people do get their CZ barrels reamed to give them more room up front when they have one that seems short enough to make them end up with multiple 9MM loads for their pistols.

Or load all of their 9MM to the length required for their shortest chambered CZ.

As long as it's not so short it causes feeding issues in one of the other pistols.  You'd just have to check it and see.

[SoCal]

^^^ X2

M1A has summed it up very well.

[Wobbly]

I just got a brand new Shadow 2 and none of my existing loads would chamber at all as the bullets were engaging the rifling. Following the tutorial on this site I determined that the max OAL for my chamber is 1.056". Applying the .015" rule of thumb means that theoretically I should be loading to 1.041" COAL. This is substantially shorter than what any manual recommends yet is still above SAAMI spec.

I'm sorry, but you fail the class. That's not what the tutorial says at all !

The tutorial says there's a RANGE of OAL for every pistol. For 9x19 Luger (which I suppose you are discussing) SAAMI sets the Min OAL at 1.000", so your RANGE is from 1.000 up 1.041". You can safely load anything in that range.

Because this number is on the shorter side, you might start at the high end with 1.040" and see how it goes. I say that number simply because it's easy to read on a caliper.

Is my chamber way out of spec like I think it is, or are there other people here that load their rounds that short?

Out of spec simply because you have a number you weren't expecting ? That's like rejecting a speeding citation just because the radar said you were doing 90, when you only expected 75mph ! That's like refusing to eat Thanksgiving dinner because your wife bought a turkey smaller than what you expected ! That's like rejecting a 12% raise because you were only expecting 3% this year ! And the best one of all was Putin expecting to vacation in Crimea for the next several summers ! In life more often than not, the reality is far from what we imagined.

Let's also not forget that the measurement is a function of the bullet you chose. So the barrel may be completely "normal", the issue may rest entirely with the bullet ! Try another shape bullet. The closer you get to FMJ ogive shape the longer your Max OAL is going to be.

Reaming the barrel is an option, but it's the option of last resort.

And to answer your question, "Yes" I have some favorite loads in 9mm calling for 1.040" OAL. I regularly load my RMR 124gr JHP at 1.060".

All the best.

[ReaperActual7]

Out of spec simply because you have a number you weren't expecting ?

I mean out of spec as in, "I have yet to find a brand of factory loaded ammunition that will chamber, whether it be FMJ or JHP, including quality defensive hollow points." I tried 4 different types of bullets for handloads as well, with my preferred bullets being required to be set to 1.040" as mentioned.

If it was just my rounds I would seat them deep and send them, but it when Speer, Federal and Hornady don't come close to seating either it seems like it might be a genuine chamber issue. And being as I literally got the gun 3 days ago if it needs warrantied I would rather know sooner than later to get the problem resolved.

[Wobbly]

1. Since the ogive of the bullet is more than 50% the equation, I'd say we can't go any further with this conversation until you document the types of bullets and factory cartridges you find troubling.

2. Since the gun was safely fired at the factory, obviously there is some ammo out there that works.

[RSR]

2. Since the gun was safely fired at the factory, obviously there is some ammo out there that works.

Is the factory firing of overloaded cartridges during proofing "safe"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q42lZqH-60

[ReaperActual7]

1. Since the ogive of the bullet is more than 50% the equation, I'd say we can't go any further with this conversation until you document the types of bullets and factory cartridges you find troubling.

For bullets: Blue Bullets 115 gr round nose, Blue Bullets 125gr round nose, and Berry's 115gr plated round nose.
For factory ammo: Magtech 115gr FMJ and Speer Gold Dot 124gr.

[M1A4ME]

Every now and then (once in a blue moon?) someone puts up a post about how they can't get their CZ 9MM to chamber some popular self defense ammo.  Even though the self defense ammo is supposed to be very high quality (the reason I'm not saying it's the ammo that's an issue) their pistol just won't chamber it.  The advice given seems to be that they should try a different brand/bullet weight.

It happens.  Nothing man made is exactly the same piece after piece after piece.  So many people have a belief that every CZ75 9MM is exactly like every other CZ75 9MM.  Just isn't true.  Close?  Yeah, can be real close.  That's one of the things that make this interesting.  Learning the differences and compensating for them.

[Wobbly]

For bullets: Blue Bullets 115 gr round nose, Blue Bullets 125gr round nose, and Berry's 115gr plated round nose.

And what were the Max OALs measured with each ?

If it was 1.041" for both, then you are doing something wrong.

[Ron IL]

I had that problem reloading for a Springfield EMP 3".  I use Brazos bullets reloading.  The 115 and 124 gr would not chamber.  Hitting the rifling.  The 135 and 147 gr would work fine so I switched to 147 gr for everything I was loading for.  I traded that gun off and a couple others and now ended up with a CZ P01 Omega.  It didn't seem to like my 147 gr loads so now I am making 135 gr and it shoots perfect for me.  So I am sticking to the 135 loads.  The profile of the bullet seemed to get fatter quicker on the lower grain bullets because they have to be shorter.  You will probably find that out in the loaded stuff too. 

[IDescribe]

For bullets: Blue Bullets 115 gr round nose, Blue Bullets 125gr round nose, and Berry's 115gr plated round nose.

And what were the Max OALs measured with each ?

If it was 1.041" for both, then you are doing something wrong.

^^^^THIS^^^^

Even my shorter than average ShadowLine chamber will handle Berry's RN at longer OALs than what the magazine will accept.

For Blue Bullets RN, I was around 1.1 when I tested those.

The most likely case here is that there is something wrong with the testing process.

And what exactly is meant by the bullets not chambering because the bullet engages the rifling?  Does not chambering mean the slide won't close all the way?  Or does not chambering mean it won't plunk and spin freely on a plunk test?

As Wobbly said, it would be good to list the bullets you loaded specifically and what your max OAL was.  You have a lot of people here who, given enough detail, can look at it and say "Oh, I see what the problem is." 

[Wobbly]

Even my shorter than average ShadowLine chamber will handle Berry's RN at longer OALs than what the magazine will accept.

The most likely case here is that there is something wrong with the testing process.

I don't use Blue Bullets, so I can't speak to them.... But all my CZ chambers will load the Berry 115/124gr RN at lengths exceeding the SAAMI Max OAL of 1.169". They typically test in a range between 1.180 to 1.210".

Something is simply not adding up here.

[tdogg]

It sounds like you reload.  If so, you may want to try to incrementally seat a bullet into the case deeper and deeper till it plunks (start at a too long oal).  I'd seat it in 0.005 inch increments till it passes the plunk test.

This dummy cartridge should have been sized, flared, seated, and crimped (flair removed) just as you would during normal loading but no powder or primer.

That gives you the close to the same result as the push test and would eliminate any test method issues with the push test.

To answer your original question, too short for me is when you get shorter than the ~1.05 inch.  You can have feeding issues, and you can start having bullet induced case bulging issues with heavier bullets (>135 gr).  The longer bullet will start hitting the thicker portion of the case because it is seated so deep in the case.

Only you can determine if either of those things are a problem in your firearms with that specific bullet.  You could find that cartridges loaded that short function great and are super accurate.

Cheers,
Toby

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