Author Topic: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today  (Read 1334 times)

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Offline Joe L

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Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« on: September 17, 2023, 02:59:56 PM »
I've distracted with range closures due to rain, the Vuelta a Espana bike race coverage, and some lack of commitment to actually practice! 
So I've managed to complete a few short dry fire training sessions with the Mantis X mounted on my P-10F striker pistol. 

The Mantis X is a pretty sophisticated instrument device that can be used to evaluate trigger pull and movement just prior and just after the striker or hammer is released.  I use an iPhone app to display and record the data, but the indication I really care about is the 0-100.0 score that quantifies how good of a trigger pull is delivered for each shot.  There is a pretty good correlation between the indicated score and the shot result.  And there is definitely a correlation between what I call as a "bad" pull and the score. 

The Mantis X does not know where the gun is aimed at the time the gun goes off, so aiming the pistol still has to be practiced in live fire at the range.  I'm pretty good at that.  What I am not good at after missing a few weeks of shooting is minimizing the movement of the gun just as the trigger is pulled and the shot is released.  That is where I am usually having a problem when I have a bad day.  I think. 

I've put together a 5 minute video showing the dry fire results from this morning.  Some time this week, I'll include the phone in the live fire video at the range just for comparison.  I need a few more dry fire sessions here at the house before the live fire session.  I included a few shots single hand off the rest and two handed off the rest for comparison.  I am really rusty at those disciplines--feels like waving the gun around after shooting off the rest. 


 

I'm hoping these dry fire sessions with the near instant feedback from the Mantis X will help me become a little more consistent at 100 yards than I have been these last few weeks.  We'll see.

Joe L
« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 05:39:11 AM by Joe L »
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2023, 05:46:50 AM »
Interesting.

I don't think I've used the Mantis on one of the M&Ps yet. Or any striker fired gun.  I'm going to have to try it and also get a comparison between the factory trigger on the .40 PC pistol and the .40 with the Apex trigger kit in it.  Can't think of any word to describe the Apex other than awesome.  It's like some of the better CZ triggers in SA mode.

Do you have something you aim at on the wall?  Do you think focusing on the dot on a target would change the numbers?

Oh, one other thing.  I see your trigger finger dragging the inside of the trigger guard.  Do you do that on all the P10 pistols?  The P09, CZ97, etc?  I notice it sometimes when I'm shooting a pistol but never really though about it (maybe) affecting trigger pull.  Not sure whether it does or not  But wondering about it now, after watching your video.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2023, 08:34:33 AM »

Do you have something you aim at on the wall?  Do you think focusing on the dot on a target would change the numbers?

Oh, one other thing.  I see your trigger finger dragging the inside of the trigger guard.  Do you do that on all the P10 pistols?  The P09, CZ97, etc?  I notice it sometimes when I'm shooting a pistol but never really though about it (maybe) affecting trigger pull.  Not sure whether it does or not  But wondering about it now, after watching your video.

Dot versus target focus

Dot focus is something I got away from when I quit shooting bullseye and was reminded of when I went back through Cleckner's book on long range rifle shooting, where he says to focus on the reticle and not the target.  I reread his book on rifles after struggling with the .22 and .308 rifles recently.  On the pistols, especially single handed standing, the dot moves a bunch on the target.  The harder you try to steady or time the shot, the worse the result gets because you screw up the trigger pull trying to get the gun to go off at exactly the "right" time.  The best bullseye shooters allow the wobble and instead focus on the dot and on delivering a perfect trigger pull on every shot.  The error due to the wobble is less than the error created by a poor trigger pull. 

At 100-200 yards from a rest, there is still some gun movement just due to pulse rate, but lately I've been forcing way too many shots when focusing too much on the target.  I am probably doing so with the rifles.  I've had some very good sessions with the pistols when I was shooting a little faster than normal, and the only way to speed up is to become less critical of the exact position on the target and instead just think about pulling the trigger smoothly.  So, what I intend to try this week is to place the dot on the bullseye and focus on the dot and on releasing the shot as smoothly as possible, both with the rifle and with the pistols.  During dry fire in the video, I was placing the dot on a spot on the wall, but concentrating on the dot and moving the trigger.

So, my current habit of focusing on the target is really a result of me thinking, "Hot dog, now that I have a rest, I can finally get a perfectly stabilized dot on the center of the bullseye and the gun won't move, so every shot will be perfect!"  And that just doesn't happen unless every trigger pull is perfect, too, and it isn't. 

Trigger finger angle

My trigger finger angle relative to the bore axis changes with the type of gun.  The strikers can be gripped higher on the frame because there is no hammer mechanism in the way.  The hammer guns grip lower.  This changes the angle of one's trigger finger in the frame.  If the trigger finger angle is significantly aimed down at the trigger, it is nearly impossible for me to eliminate the trigger finger contact with the guard once the trigger finger insertion distance is set properly with large amounts of Sugru or JB Weld.  On my P-10C, I built up the grip below the grip curve with Sugru to change the trigger finger angle enough so that the drag wasn't a problem.  I didn't do that on the P-10F, at least not yet.  I've also trimmed trigger guards with a Dremel to minimize the drag to a point where I don't think it is a problem...unless I'm wearing gloves, at which point I might as well get out my 1911 because everything is changed.

I will have to go back and look at the P-09/07 pistols to see what I did there, but I think those are the ones where I trimmed the trigger guards some, can't remember. 

I might pull out my P-09 and move the Mantis X device over to it and try it in dry fire for comparison.  I'm thinking those scores will be the same or maybe just a tad higher on average than with the striker guns.  My P-10S trigger is my favorite trigger of the strikers but it is also the one that probably needs some additional tweaking of the grip shape and trigger placement. 

With a little dry fire practice over the weekend, I was able to get my Mantis X scores from mid 90's to high 90's pretty quickly, even with the striker fired pistol, and I am very happy about that.  There is more work to be done here, though, that's for sure.  Thanks for the comments.

Joe L   
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 08:42:30 AM by Joe L »
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2023, 05:09:31 PM »
My P07 DUTY (better trigger than the P09 or P07 9MM guns I have) and P01 Omega were in the mid 90's for me.  I never really worked real hard on it after finding that out.  But I never tried it with the striker guns.

The finger at an angle thing isn't there on my P07/P09.  One of the reasons I hated the Glock was the really twisted up angle I had on my trigger finger.  With a "normal" grip my trigger finger, straight out, had the tip up on the side of the slide.  Something wrong wtih the ergonomics, unless I've just got a "hammer fired" hand.

I remember an old guy (Navy Rifle Team back in the mid to late 60's) telling me I was doing it wrong - trigger pull.  We discussed the iron sights/scope reticle moving around on the target.  You can't stop it.  You just keep practicing till it till that dance around the center gets smaller and smaller.  And you start your trigger pull and be consistent with it and the bullet goes were it goes - so you work at making the movement on the target smaller.  Me?  I would pull the trigger to the wall, wait till the sights were where I wanted them and then finish the squeeze.  He said I was doing it wrong.  I never competed except for one year on the battalion combat pistol team but we didn't have any coaching anyway.  We just shot the way it seemed to work best for us.

I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2023, 05:26:50 PM »
I might try a target that I used to use some times when I was struggling in bullseye.  I may put up a blank 24"x24" sheet of paper at 100 yards and just try to center the dot on the target both vertically and horizontally and let the shots go.  I was surprised how small of a group I could shoot after I settled down from the original problem--usually a flinch or a weird trigger pull.  It might take 20 or 30 shots or so, but it helps train your brain to focus on the dot and the trigger pull and to NOT go for the "perfect" dot placement in the bullseye.  I might use a 2"x2" piece of black duct tape--something so small that it will be totally covered up by the dot, just to avoid getting asked by the onlookers what I'm doing shooting at a blank piece of paper. 
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2023, 05:38:19 AM »
Like shooting peep sights.  Sometimes your mind and eyes do an awesome job of centering the sight/dot in the center of something.

I have one scope (don't remember what rifle it's on now) that makes the illuminated dot in the center of the cross hairs larger as you adjust the power upwards.  It works out pretty good when shooting round targets.  I can adjust the size of the dot to exactly cover the black rings/circle in the middle of the target. 

That was another question that popped into my head last night.  Do you find yourself "liking" or shooting different sized dots better than other sizes?  I know I've read that you can adjust the brightness levels upwards to make a smaller dot look bigger but I can't say I've done that and it worked for me.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2023, 06:08:00 AM »
The analogy to the peep sights is right on.  I've only shot peeps in two range sessions years ago and I was amazed at how well I could shoot the AR-15 out to 200 yards with just the peep sight. 

I only have experience with 2 and 3 moa red dots and standard bullseye match targets.  I've always tried to have the dot just barely fit inside the black bullseye at 100 yards, so a B8c for the 2moa sights and a B6c? for the 3 moa sights,  At 200 I put up a 12" square for an aim point.  Those are convenient to use but I am not sure they are optimum at all, especially in light of the "focus on the dot/reticle and not the target" advice that I have received from the best shooters.  For bullseye match distances of 25 and 50 yards, the dot is always much smaller than the bullseye and so one is really shooting much more like the peep sight analogy than my "barely fit the dot in the black bullseye" at 100 theoretical optimum.

I tend to shoot the dots at the lowest intensity to get the crispest dot.  One advantage of the Holosun sights--more flexibility in adjusting the intensity, again, just to make it easier to see the target placement precisely. 

Bullseye shooter and instructor Brian Zins scratched a mark in the center of my irons front sight and told me to focus on that and let the bullseye get fuzzy when shooting bullseye.  I am not a very good student so I assumed that advice didn't apply when I went to the red dot, but, on second thought, maybe it does.

Joe L
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Joe L

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2023, 06:43:59 AM »
I just went back to review some Brian Zins videos on irons versus red dots.  He didn't say to focus on the dot exclusively for bullseye.  What he said was that the shooter will go back and forth between a target focus and a sight focus if the shooter doesn't consciously pick one or the other.  With irons, he always focuses on the front sight.  With the red dot, the AMU used to teach focus on the dot, but that changed to focus on the target after Zins shot a 100 at 50 yards the first time he tried it.  After that, the AMU found that many shooters do best focusing on the target with a dot, but many do best focusing on the dot, and that it varied depending on the sight and the shooter's vision.  The important thing was to consciously focus on one or the other so your vision focus doesn't shift back and forth during your shot process. 

Joe L

CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2023, 12:22:33 PM »
I keep reading that when you're younger you eyes can adjust focus so quickly that you think you're focusing on the front sight and the target at the same time, even though you really aren't.  I never realized that till just after 40 when it started taking several seconds to adjust from close to farther out.

I still do focus on the front sight (irons) and let the target be fuzzy.  Otherwise I can't keep the front sight centered and level with the rear sight.

With the dot it seems to be a matter of target size.  If the target is big, I focus on the dot.  If the target is small, I focus on the target.  Easier to see a small target if I focus on the target.  I don't competition shoot.  At the range the targets are all the same size and fairly close.  At home I might shoot at a small rock, or a three limb, or a knot in a tree, etc.  Don't him them as often as I used to but I'm not using the S&W 586 6" either - or the P09 9MM.  I still say that gun could give my old S&W a run for it's money. 

Funny about the dot.  With iron sights I have to focus on the front sight to see it clearly and keep it aligned with the rear sight.  Three points of alignment.  Front sight with the rear and then front sight with the target while keeping the front and rear sight aligned.  With the dot it's only two points of alignment, the dot and the target.  Whether it's a thing with the dot or only have two things to keep aligned I cannot tell if the target blurs when looking at the dot or the dot blurs when looking at the target.  I can bleep focus back and forth and can't tell it makes a difference in how clear either one is.  But I'm not shooting 100 or 200 yds. either.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2023, 01:31:23 PM »
I just got home from the range.  I shot the .308 Savage at 100 and then the P-10F and C at 100. 

With the rifle from a bipod and rear bag focusing on the reticle instead of the 2" square target seemed to work very well, but I think it was because the reticle was essentially stationary on the target.  In other words, it was easy to simply think focus on the reticle and the trigger pull because nothing was moving when viewing through the scope. 

When I switched to the P-10F with the Holosun sight, it was quite difficult to make the transition to a dot focus because of the movement compared to the rifle.  I took 5 uncomfortable shots and then 5 more.  Fortunately, I videoed everything so I could review exactly what the results were, and they were actually very good with the P-10F and the AA ammo.  But, mentally, it was driving me crazy.  So I went back to a target focus and proceeded to shotgun the target, so I got out the P-10C and had additional "bad" results.  So I shut it down after 50 rounds total and went home to study the video and figure out exactly how bad I had done.

There were several other shooters there plus two safety officers so I didn't try to record the MantisX output and I didn't start the shooter camera until I went to the pistol.  I may go back tomorrow and give it another shot, so to speak.  Video later today.  My current plan is to try the dot focus one more time on the pistols and see how it goes.

Joe L
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2023, 07:30:56 PM »
Earlier we were talking about how our eyes/mind/muscles work to try to put the dot, or reticle in the center of the paper, or target.

Seems like it would be easier to do if the reticle/dot were clear/focused and the target was fuzzy.  The center of a fuzzy target is the same center of a clear/in focus target.  Just seems like a fuzzy sight would be more difficult for the eyes/mind to center.  Can't say that it is, but it seems like.  But that just may be years of doing it the other way speaking.

I'm always talking about "why the dot" for me and my bad eyes.  I say, "without my glasses I can't see the front sight.  Without my glasses I can still put a fuzzy dot on a fuzzy target."  I need to remember to try it at the range next trip.  Remove my glasses and use that fuzzy dot to see what kind of group I can shoot at 7 to 10 yds. or so.  Might not have anything to do with shooting 100 to 200 yds. but now I'm thinking about it after working through this thread.  Thanks, Joe. 
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline JPRO11

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Re: Short video of Mantis X and dry fire with the P-10F today
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2024, 12:59:03 AM »
Great consistency!

 

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