Author Topic: OAL safety, and Load parameters  (Read 10182 times)

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Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2023, 09:49:06 AM »
There is always variation in manufacturing (meaning reloading)....

The best you can hope for is a low (possibly single digit) SD number. But you can't even go by that until you start measuring at least 8 rounds, and hopefully 10 or more.
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Offline Davehb

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2023, 09:09:07 PM »
It wasn’t the velocity change that bothered me so much as the recoil, and distance it threw the spent cartridge.
Sent one cartridge off my catch mat. >10-12 feet, and I was sitting on the ground. Most of them I could just reach and pickup without moving.

Although seldom shoot +P I tuned it for 8-10 feet, standing, even with those.

I’m of mind that one with, what I assume is wider ogive, resulted in a deeper seated bullet, why I got such a hard recoil.
 
Plus, even though I can seat it with die I have without deformation of the bullet going to get a round nosed seating stem see if that does away with issue of roughly 40% seating as much as .006 deeper (shorter OAL) in seating depth with one I have. 



Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2023, 09:21:50 AM »
Due to variations in manufacture and the intervention of humans... anything can happen at least once.

If a similar test was being conducted for purposes of quality control in an industrial setting, then the test sample lot would be at least 30, and the highest and lowest number might be thrown out.

So when you have a sample lot of 2, you can't let anything surprise or upset you. You are trying to draw conclusions and assign faults where it absolutely cannot be done. All you can do is promise yourself >next time< to be more careful in your loading practices. And this is to say there may have been ZERO errors in your loading practices last time, so this is not "finger pointing".

If you have deep questions that simply won't stop bothering you, then the only thing you can do is do the test over again, but this time with a much greater sample lot size of 8 to 10.


BRASS
Two words of caution about your samples. Your brass cases will contribute a very large variation in results...
• So use one single brand of brass for all your test samples.
• This is easier said than done, because your 2 most common brands are likely Winchester and Federal. But these guys buy different batches from various vendors. There is "WIN" brass and there is "Win" brass, and they are not the same. There is "FED" brass and there is "-FED-" brass, and they are not the same.

CHRONO
The chronograph remains one of the large variation inputs due to changes in light and inconsistent user technique. Any trees near your range that block light by swaying in the wind can change your readings. If the sun is not straight over-head, then you may need to tilt your chrono toward the sun. New chrono users usually get whacky results because it's simply not as easy as point-aim-click. Just like music, you have to learn your instrument.

To rule out variations at the chrono, you might load another test set of 8-10 using jacketed bullets. If their data stacks up nicely, but the HHP do not, then you have valid chrono data that supports your original assumptions.

BULLETS
You've wondered aloud about the differences in bullets leading to the variations you're seeing. That is a valid concern. But only after all other components are identical. Make a new sample lot of 8-10 cartridges and randomly pick bullets out of the Berry container as if you were loading 500.

Loaded this way, if you still see wild variations then you may need to choose another brand of bullet.


Complicated, YES. Lots of work, YES. But this is the way I would proceed.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 09:49:33 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline tdogg

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2023, 10:29:26 AM »
But in the end what you really care about is how it performs on target correct?  That should be the ultimate arbiter.  Sure there are logistical and practical implications to load development like safety, bullet velocity, felt recoil, and firearm wear.  Those can sometimes dictate where you end up but on target performance should be pretty high up on the list of important factors.

You can chase single digit SD's and perfect OAL's all day but if that load doesn't perform on target it's all moot.  You are dealing with mass produced components (even premium Starline) and they all have variability.  I'd rather have a pistol load that shoots well using mixed brass in my automated progressive process than a finely tuned, bullet weight sorted, single batch brass, weigh each charge one at a time batch process.  I reserve the latter for my precision rifle loading where I can see/appreciate that reduction in variability on target at distance.  In pistol shooting you may not be able to see a difference on target so the extra time spent at the reloading bench is not value added.

Pick your battles...

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Toby
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Offline dillonguy098

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2023, 10:35:10 AM »
Well said, sir.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2023, 02:48:02 PM »
But in the end what you really care about is how it performs on target correct?  That should be the ultimate arbiter. 

Agreed. Accuracy is King in my book.

I sort of went down the rabbit hole with the OP.
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Offline Davehb

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2023, 07:41:29 PM »
I’ve made quite a few more with Hornady seating die using PD, Sierra, XTP, by using my set up round for each. All OAL’s are within .001”.

Berry’s bullets are driving me nuts. They are all over the place on OAL.

Think die isn’t very compatible with them Been searching, but haven’t found a rounded seating cup, or die.

Does anyone have a recommendation for one so wouldn’t to mold any epoxy in one? 

 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2023, 08:07:13 AM »
I’m Using All new Starline brass. 

That's about as consistent as you can get.


Thinking I had to have gotten one of longer bullets in the mix resulting in couple seated deeper eating up a few thousandths of cartridge space.

By "longer bullets in the mix" I hope you don't mean that you have 147gr mixed in with your 124gr.

If you simply mean there are bullets of the same weight but different lengths mixed in together, then that's what you'll be shooting with after the testing phase is over. May as well test with them, is my feeling. In all other aspects, the test cartridges should be as identical as possible.
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Offline dillonguy098

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2023, 10:06:50 AM »
Davehb, have you tried a Dillon seating die? The seating stem can be flipped over for round nose bullets or flat point bullets. Just thought I’d pass that along.

Offline Davehb

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2023, 03:40:05 PM »
Dillon thanks.
I Found one in stock. 

Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2023, 09:14:17 AM »
Dillon thanks.
I Found one in stock.

So, may I ask, what dies are you using ?

Dillon, Hornady, Redding... you might look at those 3. Dillon and Hornady have a seating anvil that is exchangeable... that is, you can swap it out to get the best seating with different shaped bullets. Redding has a very good "universal" shape.



The conical shapes from Hornady and Precision Delta can be the hardest to seat correctly. Since the seating anvil is removeable, that allows you to make your own for special bullets. Such as these I make for the PD 124gr JHP....








In that regard, I'll be glad to help you anyway I can.
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Offline Davehb

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2023, 08:09:09 PM »

So, may I ask, what dies are you using ?

Dillon, Hornady, Redding... you might look at those 3. Dillon and Hornady have a seating anvil that is exchangeable... that is, you can swap it out to get the best seating with different shaped bullets. Redding has a very good "universal" shape.


The conical shapes from Hornady and Precision Delta can be the hardest to seat correctly. Since the seating anvil is removeable, that allows you to make your own for special bullets. Such as these I make for the PD 124gr JHP....

In that regard, I'll be glad to help you anyway I can.

 
I’m using Hornady dies.
Works very well for the conical XTP, and PD. Seat straight with Consistent OAlengths.

Main issue is with the Berrys. Had a few issues seating the Sierra Vcrown using it.

Berry’s recommends rounded seating anvil, but search algorithms weren’t helping me find one.


Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2023, 10:02:04 PM »
Main issue is with the Berrys. Had a few issues seating the Sierra Vcrown using it.

Berry’s recommends rounded seating anvil, but search algorithms weren’t helping me find one.

Let me add that to the long list of things I'm working on. Don't go anywhere.
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2023, 02:48:34 PM »
It took a long time, but I finally got you on my to-do list....



These fit pretty darn good, if I do say so myself. Maybe this will help your seating dilemma.



I started with the standard Hornady flat anvil. If you'll contact me, we can simply swap flat anvils via the mail.

This anvil isn't much help with 30° bullets, like XTP and PD JHP, but it does fit the 158gr for 38/357.

Just remember folks.... You saw it first here !!

In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Davehb

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Re: OAL safety, and Load parameters
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2023, 10:50:59 PM »
It took a long time, but I finally got you on my to-do list....



These fit pretty darn good, if I do say so myself. Maybe this will help your seating dilemma.



I started with the standard Hornady flat anvil. If you'll contact me, we can simply swap flat anvils via the mail.

This anvil isn't much help with 30° bullets, like XTP and PD JHP, but it does fit the 158gr for 38/357.

Just remember folks.... You saw it first here !!
Loaded half a dozen with it tonight.

Wobbly; gotta say you out did yourself.
Worked great.
Set it for 1.050.
All finished rounds were from 1.049-1.051.
A .002 variance I can live with. 
 


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