Czechpoint VZ 61 7.65mm vs. 380 ACP Reliability, Accuracy, and Recoil

[Robert Louis]

I am considering purchasing a Czechpoint VZ 61 in either 7.65 mm (aesthetically pleasing curved magazines) or .380 ACP. Any opinions or information on differences between the two calibers on Reliability, Accuracy, and Recoil? Any information would be appreciated. 

[Wobbly]

You might want to consider the cost of the ammo. 380Auto is also known as "9x17"; whereas Luger is "9x19". The main difference is that the Luger case is 2mm longer.... but check the price difference on 1000 rounds.

I have a Jap 7.7 rifle my dad brought home. It's been sitting in the closet unfired since 1967. If you buy a gun you can't afford to shoot, then the "effectiveness" or other technical qualities of the cartridge are all purely academic.

Just my 2 cents.

[Robert Louis]

You might want to consider the cost of the ammo. 380Auto is also known as "9x17"; whereas Luger is "9x19". The main difference is that the Luger case is 2mm longer.... but check the price difference on 1000 rounds.

I have a Jap 7.7 rifle my dad brought home. It's been sitting in the closet unfired since 1967. If you buy a gun you can't afford to shoot, then the "effectiveness" or other technical qualities of the cartridge are all purely academic.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the reply Wobbly. Yes 380 ACP is around .24 per round vs .40 for 32 ACP. FYI 380 ACP is a lot weaker than 9mm Luger with about 150 lbs. on the average less. The pressure is about 40% less. Still a self-defense round but not as strong as 9mm Luger.

[aerobat]

A friend has a walther pp in 7.65 i also shoot often . A very nice gun and calibre . I also know a guy with a sig 365 in .380acp and imho the recoil is very similar - the 7.65 is even a bit more "sharp" and unpleasant in recoil .

I think the performance of both is very similar , the .380 only a touch more powerful .

The ammo prices are a strong argument , depending on your location.

I would go 7.65 . James bond would agree with me
 

[Robert Louis]

A friend has a walther pp in 7.65 i also shoot often . A very nice gun and calibre . I also know a guy with a sig 365 in .380acp and imho the recoil is very similar - the 7.65 is even a bit more "sharp" and unpleasant in recoil .

I think the performance of both is very similar , the .380 only a touch more powerful .

The ammo prices are a strong argument , depending on your location.

I would go 7.65 . James bond would agree with me

Thanks for the reply. I agree that 7.65mm is often overlooked and  unnecessarily dismissed as something equivalent to a 22 LR or WMR. While this caliber has certainly been surpassed, 7.65mm was a police caliber in Europe for the first 80 years of the 20th century. It was also a rear staff caliber during WWI and WWII. The European version of 32 ACP like 22LR is usually higher pressure.

I may get both calibers. the 7.65mm VZ 61 looks great with the curved magazines.

[czechollector]

Maybe you should also consider the 9mm Makarov version as well.  Will have a little more 'punch', but they're not easy to find.

[Robert Louis]

Maybe you should also consider the 9mm Makarov version as well.  Will have a little more 'punch', but they're not easy to find.

Yes it would be great to have all 3 calibers, but I think two calibers is probably within my budget.

[RSR]

.32 acp/7.65 browning is a semi-rimmed cartridge, which can potentionally cause feeding issues across all weapon systems.  .380 is rimless.

.32 acp can use factory metal mags and has the factory look.  I think all the .380 acp mags are not only straight but also polymer, so may be less robust than original military metal...

.32 acp is more expensive for factory ammo, but reloading costs are about the same between the two calibers.  Probably also depends on if you're already stocking one or the other caliber. 
And while I care and am partial to .32 acp for its increased compactness vs. .380 acp for pocket carry, it matters less here...

Ballistically, I'd *think* the .32 acp probably performs better at distance for offensive military/(combloc)police use, and I'd also be partial to it ballistically/recoil in a f/a scenario.  Semi-auto and today, barring WROL, you're probably ahead w/ .380 for any serious use scenario.

So I think it really comes down to whether you're a collector or shooter -- do you want as authentic as possible with all the OEM accessories, pouches, tooling/repair kits/gauges, etc., to work, or do you want a more modern and perhaps more practical take on the original?

[Robert Louis]

.32 acp/7.65 browning is a semi-rimmed cartridge, which can potentionally cause feeding issues across all weapon systems.  .380 is rimless.

.32 acp can use factory metal mags and has the factory look.  I think all the .380 acp mags are not only straight but also polymer, so may be less robust than original military metal...

.32 acp is more expensive for factory ammo, but reloading costs are about the same between the two calibers.  Probably also depends on if you're already stocking one or the other caliber. 
And while I care and am partial to .32 acp for its increased compactness vs. .380 acp for pocket carry, it matters less here...

Ballistically, I'd *think* the .32 acp probably performs better at distance for offensive military/(combloc)police use, and I'd also be partial to it ballistically/recoil in a f/a scenario.  Semi-auto and today, barring WROL, you're probably ahead w/ .380 for any serious use scenario.

So I think it really comes down to whether you're a collector or shooter -- do you want as authentic as possible with all the OEM accessories, pouches, tooling/repair kits/gauges, etc., to work, or do you want a more modern and perhaps more practical take on the original?

Very well written post RMR. You made a very good point on the the "semi-rimmed" nature of 32 ACP and feeding issues.

[aerobat]

Thanks for the reply. I agree that 7.65mm is often overlooked and  unnecessarily dismissed as something equivalent to a 22 LR or WMR. While this caliber has certainly been surpassed, 7.65mm was a police caliber in Europe for the first 80 years of the 20th century. It was also a rear staff caliber during WWI and WWII. The European version of 32 ACP like 22LR is usually higher pressure.

We 'played' a lot at the range with the 7.65 and i know first hand it will out of the mentioned walther punch thru a multilayered bottom of a frypan at 25 yards easily .

That said its true some modern very hot loads of the .22lr ( e.g cci stinger ) close up to it while the .22wmr outperforms it in kintetic energy but that does not mean the 7.65 is a toy for kids .

I think it boils down to what you like and whats your preferred use .

Great informations rsr that the .32acp is semi rimmed  !

[RSR]

Thanks for the reply. I agree that 7.65mm is often overlooked and  unnecessarily dismissed as something equivalent to a 22 LR or WMR. While this caliber has certainly been surpassed, 7.65mm was a police caliber in Europe for the first 80 years of the 20th century. It was also a rear staff caliber during WWI and WWII. The European version of 32 ACP like 22LR is usually higher pressure.

We 'played' a lot at the range with the 7.65 and i know first hand it will out of the mentioned walther punch thru a multilayered bottom of a frypan at 25 yards easily .

That said its true some modern very hot loads of the .22lr ( e.g cci stinger ) close up to it while the .22wmr outperforms it in kintetic energy but that does not mean the 7.65 is a toy for kids .

I think it boils down to what you like and whats your preferred use .

Great informations rsr that the .32acp is semi rimmed  !

Punching through steel is largely if not overwhelmingly about velocity, and only secondarily sectional density...  And yes, there may be arguments to be made for .22 wmr (which generally speaking is available and loaded to a higher standard than .22lr but its price per round also reflects this...) vs. .32 acp.

Regardless, centerfire cartridges -- especially with sealed primers -- are far more reliable for any rimfire cartridge...  And .32 acp is the smallest centerfire cartridge I stock -- I have zero reason for super-deep concealment .25 acp, but YMMV.  And I'm not carrying .22lr or .22 wmr for self defense (*maybe* I'd consider as a deep concealment backup gun like a derringer if funds were REALLY limited, but otherwise, just no).  I regularly carry and use rimfire guns for varmint control when home on my farm and have confidence in capability given more premium loadings I run and my marksmanship up to coyotes (not recommended and certainly not ideal but capable nonetheless), but especially out of pistol-length barrels, I'd far prefer .32 acp to either .22lr or .22wmr.  Again, YMMV.

[aerobat]

@RSR

i fully agree with you , just looked at it thru a 'german eye' with very strict gun laws where judging it from a self defense and concealed carry point of view is not very common .

For self defense against human attackers i would say the .32acp with a sp or jhp is way more effective than a .22lr . And i agree a centre fire outperforms any rimfire in reliability .

With the .22wmr i had in my mind a rifle as a varmint hunting or pest control on a farm , not for self defence again .

Best regards