CZ P-10F trigger parts cleaning regimen..and maybe parts replacement

[Joe L]

I have none. 

I have sprayed and blown the frame parts and cleaned the striker parts a few times but that is it over the last few years.  This morning I took my F pistol down to see if I could eliminate one little trigger pull issue compared to my C and S pistols, so I thought I would show you that a center fire pistol can get as nasty as a Kadet, given enough rounds.  More later on the modifications I'm making. 


 


This is fun.  This is messy.

Joe L

[Joe L]

Here is a comparison of the stock disconnector on the left, with the candidate Apex Tactical disconnector on the right.  The slope of the trigger bar ramp is different.  I want a "roll" trigger, not a crisp trigger.  My factory parts have a hard wall compared to the S and C parts, so I thought I would try this disconnector.  If I like it, I'll replace the disonnectors in the other two pistols. 



Joe L

[Joe L]

Just finished installing the Apex Tactical disconnector, slide plate, and slide lock release lever.  Trigger feels good, almost too much roll before release of the striker, but the proof will be in the shooting, which may be on Tuesday after Easter. 

I only bent two roll pin punches  today, but I didn't launch any tiny springs or put anything together incorrectly.  I think.   I need some more roll pins and punches for the rear locking block.  Maybe Ace Hardware. 

Joe

[M1A4ME]

Bent punches.  Ah, I know them well.

Tried to remove one of the old solid extractor pins from an old M&P 1.0 sub compact .40 about 3 weeks back.  Oil, soak, punch(es) and hammer.  No go.  After the below picture was taken I ordered more punches and then decided to just send it out for milling for the Holosun and slide refinishing and let the shop (DP Custom Works LLC) remove the extractor.  Doug told me he'd also bent punches on those old solid pins, too.

[Tanners Owner]

Wow, must have hammered them hard.

Always enjoyed your posts- very informative

[Joe L]

Yes, I have one roll pin on the back end of the rear block that is stubborn.  Replacement roll pins and punches should arrive by Monday evening. 

I made a quick trip to the shooting range this morning before anyone else got there, just to run a live fire safety check on the disconnector replacement.  I ran 30 rounds through the modified pistol, no problems.  And I really like the feel of the trigger, no erratic wall like I had with the factory pieces.  I think there is a rough spot on my factory disconnector ramp off to one side that I could feel at times.  The new one is as smooth as it can be, albeit with a longer pull.  It ain't "crisp".  Lots of people would want something crisper, not me.  I didn't do any additional polishing of the contact surfaces on the trigger bar or disconnector or striker.  I just cleaned everything up, put a drop of oil on the parts, and reassembled.  And beat the last pin in with my fancy heavy hammer.

So, I'm ready to go for Tuesday at the 100 yard rifle bay.  I'll have my P-10C with a fresh red dot battery with me also, just in case I have any issues with the modified P-10F.  Unlikely that I'll need to shoot the C, but I always WANT to shoot the C, now that it is also fixed up pretty well! 

Joe L

[M1A4ME]

Joe, do you ever run across a trigger that feels different at the range than at the house?

In other words, if feels different when firing live ammo and concentrating on the sights/target vs. sitting at the house, cleaning it, lubing it and dry firing it after the clean/lube?

I went to the range a couple days ago and the old 1.0 M&P PC 9MM 5" pistol had a disconcerting catch, or stop in the trigger I've never noticed before.  I got home, field stripped it, cleaned/lubed it and could not replicate that feel dry firing it.  Only thing I can think of is a difference in trigger finger placement I didn't catch at the time?  I don't know.  Gotta figure it out next trip.  I had other stuff going on, too (worked up loads that weren't functioning on the first couple steps of the ladder, wobbling like crazy trying to hold steady and chaning firing speed in an effort to reduce the effects (in my mind?) of the wobble's effect on groups.  But a few times, during the trigger pull, it felt different and I ignored it and kept going till the shot broke (instead of stopping and trying to figure it out right then.)

The gun was clean/lubed (as always) after the last range session so I know it wasn't dirty/dry.

[Joe L]

M1A4ME--Not so much different at the range than at home, other than they all feel a little "heavier" when I know they are going to release a live shot! 

My P-10F has always had some inconsistency in the trigger pull, both at home and at the range, and I've never understood why, although I didn't really study it much.  The dang pistol was always a chore to disassemble due to that one tight pin that I dreaded taking it apart, so I just lived with the erratic trigger.  I don't think it is erratic any longer, but it will take a few more range trips for me to be convinced.  If all is well now, then it has to be a rough spot on the disconnector or trigger bar.  The change in angle also changed the contact point on the trigger bar.  I didn't re-polish the trigger bar this time around. 

For me, I'm thinking dry fire at home happens at a little faster finger movement than I actually use at the range in live fire, so I "feel" more of the trigger pull at the range than I would at home.  I'm just mentally more sensitive to anything objectionable in the pull. 

Joe L

[M1A4ME]

Grabbed that old 1.0, unloaded it and spent some time doing some dry fire.

It's me.  My fault the trigger is doing what it's doing.  Dry firing isn't a "normal" way of operating the pistol.  The other day, the first couple of powder charge levels was almost like dry firing.  Every time I pulled the trigger and it went bang, the next trigger pull required me to clear the jam from the ejection port or pull the slide back far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine.

What I was doing was allowing my trigger finger to extend too far into the trigger guard so that my trigger finger was starting to wrap to the rear and come off the front of the trigger.  With that new Apex Tactical trigger my trigger finger was moving the trigger to the rear before the trigger safety was fully moved out of the way and sometimes it was catching/dragging as it hit the frame.

That was easy.

I know I didn't have the issue when I was shooting the last couple of groups (and shooting them faster than I ever do - something else I changed up from my usual routine.)

[Crawl]

...allowing my trigger finger to extend too far into the trigger guard so that my trigger finger was starting to wrap to the rear and come off the front of the trigger...

Similar to this, I tell students to focus on applying pressure to the trigger using the part of the finger tip closest to the knuckle (rather than hooking the trigger finger in a circular motion by applying pressure with the finger tip). What ends up happening is the finger seems to be contacting the trigger with a more parallel contact surface.

The effects of this are twofold: 1) a lighter trigger that breaks sooner with the same effort, and 2) more importantly, the sights move less.

The trigger feels lighter because the pull is linear, so no/less lateral force is impinging the rearward travel of the trigger. The sights move less for a similar reason but also because the trigger pull compels better hand placement

Of course certain other things are prerequisites, such as a relaxed grip (to minimize the number one cause of firing low and away from the firing hand) and going slow enough that you can see/process when the sights move (so you have time to stop adding pressure to the trigger when the sights move out of an acceptable aiming point).

It is more about a linear trigger pull than a preference for finger placement. Of course, this is a separate cause of error than your issue with disengaging the trigger safety (astute observation on your part). However, it made me think of what I teach because lateral force can cause error in more than one way. 

[Joe L]

Here is a target from this morning shooting the P-10F at 100 yards with the Apex disconnector. 



The trigger feel is very different from the factory disconnector as you might imagine from looking at the slope of the disconnector ramp in the photo above. 

I'll have to get used to the longer trigger pull before the shot is released, and I'll probably have to install the Apex disconnector in my S and C guns just to make them all consistent.  But three x ring hits in the first 10 shots at 100 yards is a good result. And I'm lucky, at least today.

Joe L

[Joe L]

I went back to the shooting range with the P-10F on Wednesday and tried the modified pistol again, this time with enough space on the video camera SD card to record for an hour instead of 3 minutes.  Here is a video of the 1st (and best) target of the two I shot. 

https://youtu.be/J8Cz3GrAiXE?si=pZzr06BuSy7jb1vz

This is very similar to the target from Tuesday pictured above--3 or 4 shots a little high but a good percentage in the black on the B-8C target.  I went one click down on the sight after this target for the second and last target of the day with this pistol and that seemed to be in the right direction on average, but the problem here is eye fatigue, not so much zero, I think.  I need some more experience, perhaps on a cloudy day with less contrast. 

For my type of shooting, the change in angle of the Apex disconnector is a good thing, so I'll probably make the same changes to the C and S pistols. 

I put the P-10F up after 40 rounds and got out the P-10C.  The 25 yard lane was occupied, took a chance at re-zeroing the freshly re-installed red dot at 100 yards.  Don't do that if you have a video camera on a tripod just a little off of the line of fire.

I hit the tripod once and stopped until the 25 yard lane was available, and the zero was off by about 10" left at 25 yards, so 2-1/2' off to the left at 100, about where the tripod was.  My good luck streak continues.  And that is one tough carbon fiber tripod.  I walked the zero back in to the center at 25 yards, and at 2" high at 25 yards, it should be close at a 100 next time I shoot it.  I hope.  At least the camera gear won't be at risk. 

I'm done for the week.  Will return to the range on Tuesday of next week. 

Joe L

[Joe L]

I have now had all three of my P-10's apart and have confirmed that I don't have the latest trigger bar in any of them.  So I ordered 3 from CZ-USA and two more trigger kits from Apex this morning.  I'm hoping to make all three pistols have similar trigger pulls so that I don't spend too much time adapting to each one as a change my shooting rotation. 

The C and S pistols came apart easily, but I still need to replace one sticky insert roll pin on the F.  I have received all the "genuine CZ roll pins" I need so that should go well when I change out the trigger bars.  I'll probably polish up the trigger bar contact points before installing but that is it.  I'm probably only going to use the disconnectors and slide back plates from the Apex kits as I already have CGW triggers in each one.  I also got two more Apex Extended Slide Release levers so that all three P-10's will have the same "feel" during use.  Apex parts aren't cheap, but, so far, so good. 

I'll be shooting the striker guns for a few more weeks after I receive and install all these parts.  Dang striker guns.   

Joe L

[M1A4ME]

Joe, I always say consistency is a good thing.  It's one reason I've been buying M&Ps the last few years.  I don't carry a gun without thumb safeties. I can order the M&P I want and not worry if it's got the thumb safeties on it because I can order the safety, the spring and the detent, pull the sear cage out of the frame, remove the frame plugs and install the safety parts and that pistol now looks and operates like the models that come from the factory with safeties.

I have two full size 2.0 M&Ps with Apex trigger kits (I know, I always say the triggers are awesome).  Awhile back I bought a 2.0 .40 S&W Performance Center model with the OR slide, ported barrel and slide and worked over trigger and trigger overtravel screw in the frame.  The trigger's really not bad.  But it's not like an Apex and every time I take it to the range with the other .40 that has an Apex trigger kit in it I really notice the difference.  I don't believe the Apex trigger will help me shoot the pistol better.  I do know I will feel more comfortable that the trigger feel/action will be consistent with the others and what I'm used to.  I like consistency.

I bet you'll like shooting them more when they're all the same feel when pulling the trigger.