AK Alternative

[briang2ad]

OK - let me start with a different context. 

I've explored the 'different' AK a bit.  I've got a VZ 58 cuz I'm a CZ guy.  Good gun with some great features but limited in a few ways.

I've experimented in the AR Mutant realm also, and there are limitations.

I think the Galil is very good, but its an Anchor.

Is the Bren 2 even viable given CZ might never support it and CZ-USA seems limited with the Colt merger?   I just think it beats the VZ 58 hands down, exceeds the Galil and would be ultimately more reliable than ANY AR like derivative.  (recently learned that even the MCX (x39) doesn't feed anything reliably outside of FMJ). 

[MeatAxe]

OK - let me start with a different context. 

I've explored the 'different' AK a bit.  I've got a VZ 58 cuz I'm a CZ guy.  Good gun with some great features but limited in a few ways.

I've experimented in the AR Mutant realm also, and there are limitations.

I think the Galil is very good, but its an Anchor.

Is the Bren 2 even viable given CZ might never support it and CZ-USA seems limited with the Colt merger?   I just think it beats the VZ 58 hands down, exceeds the Galil and would be ultimately more reliable than ANY AR like derivative.  (recently learned that even the MCX (x39) doesn't feed anything reliably outside of FMJ).

Like I was saying in your other thread before it was moved over to Ammunition, with all the problems with CZ-USA, getting parts, etc., the better alternative to the Bren 2, the AK, and pretty much everything else, is the Robinson Armament XCR-L: reliable, adjustable, soft-shooting long stroke gas system, truly easily interchangeable calibers / barrel & bolt availability, AR-like controls and ergonomics, readily available spare parts, and good accuracy.

Basically, you can build any type of rifle (or pistol) you want in multiple calibers and barrel lengths. If you want heavier calibers, there’s the XCR-M:


https://robinsonarmament.com/

[briang2ad]

Thanks.

Stinks about CZ and the Bren.  Would be nice to have a military adopted carbine.

XCR looks good but very pricey.

[M1A4ME]

I'm in a similar boat with my SIG 556R.  It's a great rifle/carbine.  SIG just did the SIG thing and stopped making it and other rifles similar but in different calibers.  I hate to shoot it as you can't get much in the way of parts.  Same for the SIG 522 I bought as a trainer .  I've got three SIGs and SIG quit making all three of them.

Tried an AR set up in 7.62X39 but never got it working right in the limited time I messed with it.  Some day, if ammo I'm willing to pay for comes back into the country.  Never intended to reload for it and I'll save what ammo I have for the 556R in case it's needed someday.

Looked at the Robison web site yesterday.  As my brother in law used to say, "They sure are proud of those rifles."

Good luck with your chosen path forward.

[MeatAxe]

Thanks.

Stinks about CZ and the Bren.  Would be nice to have a military adopted carbine.

XCR looks good but very pricey.

When you think about it, the XCR is a relative bargain considering its unique and useful features (easy barrel / multiple caliber swaps, multi adjustable gas system) that hardly anyone offers. The XCR L in its various configurations lists for @ $2300. SCARs list for what? $3400+? Milled AKs are going for $2000+ these days.

The Bren 2 lists for @ $1800 - $2000, but most people put upwards of $500 in aftermarket hand guards, butt stocks / braces, charging handles, safety levers, not to mention improved aftermarket adjustable gas system — upgrades that the XCR doesn’t need. And there’s no multi-caliber capability with the Bren 2, especially with the dearth of spare parts.

As far as the XCR not being a “ service rifle,” I know “almost” only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades, but the XCR actually bested the FN in the SCAR competition before it was eliminated for a minor technicality (lack of a blank firing device).

[MeatAxe]

I'm in a similar boat with my SIG 556R.  It's a great rifle/carbine.  SIG just did the SIG thing and stopped making it and other rifles similar but in different calibers.  I hate to shoot it as you can't get much in the way of parts.  Same for the SIG 522 I bought as a trainer .  I've got three SIGs and SIG quit making all three of them.

Tried an AR set up in 7.62X39 but never got it working right in the limited time I messed with it.  Some day, if ammo I'm willing to pay for comes back into the country.  Never intended to reload for it and I'll save what ammo I have for the 556R in case it's needed someday.

Looked at the Robison web site yesterday.  As my brother in law used to say, "They sure are proud of those rifles."

Good luck with your chosen path forward.

Yeah, I’m not buying SIGs anymore because of their policy of discontinuing support of discontinued guns. I hope to god that COLT-cz doesn’t follow SIG’s lead in this regard, though their abysmal parts support across the board is bad enough.

As far as Rob Arms, if you want easily changed barrels / multiple caliber swaps, they’re pretty much the only game in town. I see they’re now chambering the XCR in 8.6 Blackout, which I find interesting.

[mig1nc]

Isn't the XCR-L also kind of a boat anchor compared to the Bren 2?

[MeatAxe]

Isn't the XCR-L also kind of a boat anchor compared to the Bren 2?

The XCR-L by virtue of having an alloy lower and a solid upper receiver / fore end is going to be a little heavier than the Bren 2 Ms with its polymer lower, but not by much.

Comparing apples to apples on the interwebs, the standard 5.56 XCR with a 16” barrel weighs 7.5 lbs. with BUIS vs the CZ BREN 2Ms Carbine weighing in at 7.3 lbs without BUIS. Of course, with the XCR you have a lot of options as far as upper receiver length and barrel length and weight.

[Skeildodah]

briang2ad, what features are you looking for?  I assume you want to stay in 7.62, any other features of interest?

I’ve never shot a VZ58 but it looks pretty cool, lucky you!

I have the XCR-L that meataxe mentions in 7.62 and 5.56 (16” light barrel) and I think his feedback in this thread is good. 

My wife and son both have the bren 2 11” pistol in 5.56 so I can’t exactly compare the bren to xcr in 7.62 but ultimately, the main differences are short vs long stroke, triggers, and the degree to which you can adjust gas.

Mig1nc mentioned that the XCR is kind of a boat anchor compared to the bren.  Frankly, there’s truth to that. Keep in mind, I’m comparing a 16” light xcr to an 11” bren and the xcr does weigh more but not by too much.  However, the weight issue IMO, is that the xcr, even with the light barrel is front heavy, due to the long stroke piston.  In contrast, the bren is far more balanced due to the short stroke piston.  Triggers are both good but xcr is crisp, geisselle-like, whereas the bren has a little mush and then crisp.  The gas systems are similar in objective but the xcr offers more precise tuning, however, it takes time to get used to.  Personally, bren is simpler on gas tuning.  As far as overall shooting, the bren is slightly softer shooting.

We shoot all of these suppressed, one bren shoots a sandman, the other a velos.  The xcr shoots velos.  As these are low back pressure suppressors, we’ve not felt the need to adjust the gas settings between unsuppressed and suppressed.  Ultimately, both shoot great suppressed but our experience is that the xcr is a little less gassy.  I wouldn’t say that should dissuade you from the bren.

Ultimately, you can’t go wrong here if you got bren or xcr but it is unfortunate that czusa is bad on parts availability.  There are 3rd parties out there that fill the gaps but don’t close them entirely.  Knock on wood, our brens have been reliable but only time will tell.