Two-handed hold questions.

[Boogalou]

I was looking at one of the gunrags at Wal-Mart while the significant other was shopping when I noticed some range shots of guys that had their support hand thumb riding right on the slide and their shooting thumb sitting on top of the safety.  They were shooting 1911's.  

I always thought you kept your thumbs away from the slide to prevent an injury.  Is this hold something new or related to 1911's only?

[Walt-Sherrill]

With 1911s, thumb on safety is the most common and most effective grip.  

It helps you when you to first disengage the safety, and keeping it there keeps the thumb OFF the slide and keeps the safety disengaged.

(With other guns, where the safety is positioned differently, the thumb on grip doesn't always work -- and can lead to the thumb impeding the slide...

[Ron-Ankeny]

I ride the thumb safety for the reasons Walt mentioned and one more reason. If you ride the safety you will greatly reduce the chances of engaging the safety while shooting.

With my grip, it probably looks like my support thumb is touching the slide or frame, but it is not touching either one. If you get into the habit of touching the frame, the sights might not track right and you can end up steering the gun with your thumb. I have been told that touching the slide can induce a malfunction, but on those occasions when I got a bad grip and just went with it, the pistol still functioned.

[creepyrat]

imho if you have to ride the  saftey to make sure it dosnt flip on while your fireing you should take your gun to a smith and have it checked out.  

i dont know if  like that grip or not yet, i have tried it and all i can see is that it may cause more potential failures than it stops if you get your grip wrong.

the other factor is that im left handed and i dont have to worry about fliping the safetey up somehow.

things work better for different people though.

[Ron-Ankeny]

CreepyRat:

The most often taught and most recommended grip, is riding the thumb safety. If it's good enough for the vast majority of Grandmaster shooters, it's good enough for me.

[Walt-Sherrill]

Quote:the other factor is that im left handed and i dont have to worry about fliping the safetey up somehow.

I don't know of any serious (competent) 1911 shooters who DON'T use the thumb-on-safety grip.  

And like Ron, I frequently use it with other guns -- if only because it keeps me from inadvertently bumping the safety.   (That's what I meant by saying it makes sure the safety stays disengaged.)  Accidentally bumping the safety is easy to do, you're clearing a jam or doing something like scenario-required calesthenics in a match.)

If you're left handed and don't have ambidextrous controls (such as a right-side safety) on your guns, you must not be shooting in IDPA or IPSC competition...

[TY44934]

I agree w/ Ron & Walt as to riding the safety; not so sure if its a safety thing but it is certainly faster as no shooter anywhere near the top used a different grip at the recent national factory, limited & open championships; not to mention the World championships last year in South Africa. Moreover, it helps keep the grip high on the gun which reduces flip & allows faster aimed followup shots.

[creepyrat]

it may be great for comp. but how does it hold up in a real combat situation. say if something goes horribly wrong and they attempt to rip the gun from your hands.

the reason my viewpoint is much different is that i dont go to comp's i dont see them as the best way to be prepared. they can teach you very bad habbits especialy if your not forced to use cover or say you drop the brass into your hand  from your revolver like you would at the range instead of just emptying and reloading.  these are just examples im throwing in but i have heard of officers that end up dead because under stress they revert to what they do at the range because thats what they practice without realising what may happen.

[Walt-Sherrill]

Before you say too much more, you may want to learn more about the types of shooting and techniques you're criticizing.  

The competition being discussed is not Bullseye-type target shooting, but a form of simulated combat, with the scenarios based on real-life situations that are designed to physically and mentally stress the shooter.  

Those of us who seek further training do it to improve our skills -- often rudimentary -- not just for these gun "games," but also to improve our ability to protect our lives and loved ones.

We often go to the same schools (and once in a while, to the same classes) as some of the best military shooters -- folks like SEALs and the guys from Delta Force.  

While most of us taking the training are, de facto,  "Kindergarteners" in terms of skills and knowledge, (while the SEALS and DF guys already have their Ph.ds), its still the same KIND of training.

One of the new members here -- A fellow I've seen shoot, and attended a class with -- is a former British SAS soldier.  As I understand it, this guy has not only "seen the bear," he's killed a few.  That's about as "real life," as it can get.

The SAS are considered among the world's best at armed or unarmed individual combat.  A friend who was in the US Army Special Forces (Airborne, Ranger, and Sniper qualified -- and a long-time martial arts expert) with much combat experience, once spent a year assigned to an SAS unit.  Even he was favorably impressed.

If this guy shows up again, I'll ask him if he uses the "thumb on safety" technique when he shoots a 1911a1.... I think I know the answer.

[Ron-Ankeny]

Geesh...I really get tired of the IPSC will get you killed mentality. OK, ignore everything I said about competition. I teach guys to ride the safety when I assist with training for various law enforcement agencies. Is that better?

[creepyrat]

as i said in my original post use what works for you.

im not criticizing im playing devils advocate i certanly didnt call any of the comps "games" i didnt say they were all bad in any way i have nothing against them.

but from many people i do know that compete in them the good ones tell me that you have to work hard not to form bad habbits that will help you in competition but hurt in real life.

if you view me incompetant becuase i dont have a ambi saftely installed on my gun or because i dont ride the saftey yet so be it.

[creepyrat]

ron im not making a wide sweep at competitions saying they kill  mentaly

[Walt-Sherrill]

Quote:im not criticizing im playing devils advocate i certanly didnt call any of the comps "games" i didnt say they were all bad in any way i have nothing against them.

Devil's advocate, huh.  Okay.

I call them games because that's what they are.  So is professional football and NASCAR.  Nothing negative intended with that use of the term.  

They're GUN games.  People keep score.  There's a winner and a bunch of losers.  If everybody does it right, nobody gets hurt (unlike Pro Football or Nascar.)   But these games have a purpose and they're almost always a learning experience.  Sometimes they're a lot of fun -- like games used to be when we were kids.  Sometimes they're not.

Quote:but from many people i do know that compete in them the good ones tell me that you have to work hard not to form bad habbits that will help you in competition but hurt in real life.

Bad habits are easy to develop even when you DON'T shoot competitively.  

I know and have shot with a bunch of master class shooters.  I've had several classes from an internationally ranked Master IPSC shooter. These guys seem to look at it differently than the folks you know.  Wonder why?

The next time you see one of these "many people who compete," ask him for some examples for us.  It might good fodder for further discussion.

Sometimes even GOOD HABITS can do you in:

I've got a friend who uses only the Weaver stance when he shoots.  When he shot with us in an IDPA match a while back, and had to shoot using his weak hand, he couldn't hit crap.  

The Weaver Stance is highly regarded by many shooters.  Its a good technique.. but not if its your only technique.

He was so used to the "dynamic tension" of the Weaver method, nothing else would work for him.  If he couldn't get his feet and arms just right, he felt awkward.  He just shot like crap.  The same thing happened when he had to shoot from the left side of a  barrier -- he had to expose himself to engage the target.   And he just could do anything with his left hand.

I now shoot almost as well with my left hand as I do with my right.  (I'm a lot slower left-handed, but almost as accurate.)  That techinque -- from IDPA Competition -- might save my life someday.    
 

Quote:if you view me incompetant becuase i dont have a ambi saftely installed on my gun or because i dont ride the saftey yet so be it.

I made no judgements about your competency.

I simply said its clear you don't compete.  That's because there's no way you would be COMPETITIVE if you were left-handed and shooting a SA gun without an ambi-safety.  

You confirmed that I was right.

[Ron-Ankeny]

Creepyrat:

I am not saying you are incompetent. You are entitled to your opinion and you must certainly use whatever works for you. However, your comment of, "...the good ones tell me..." really bothers me. How good are these really good shooters? I have shot with some pretty decent shooters and I have had some instruction from some world class shooters. I am a Master class shooter myself and I can't even begin to run with these guys. However, we all agree that the, "IPSC will get you killed mentality." (my words not yours) is so much horse manure. BTW, some of the most sought after LEO and military trainers in the world come right out of IPSC. Names like Leatham, Barnhart, and Avery come to mind.

I shoot a lot and all of my practice and competiton has allowed me to develop (in contrast to less serious shooters) a superior index, advanced awareness and visual skills, very good fire control, etc. I shoot on average well over a thousand of rounds per month (that many per week in the summer) in the off season and I dry fire daily. For the life of me, I don't see how all of that effort could possibly be counter productive in the "real world".

[creepyrat]

i always play devils advocate to attempt to bring out multiple sides.  unfortunatly i stumbled upon game players that have to defend the game to the end.