Why not a modernized 52?

[CZooter42]

With all the clones of good gun designs that come out these days, why hasn't a gun company made a high cap 7.62x25 pistol with modern features like mag drops, night sights, tac-rails and whatnot? Of course there's the FN 5.7, but it costs a grand and uses a pricey .22 bullet. I want a DA/SA .30 tok with something like 20 rounds and good ergonomics. Does anyone know of such a thing? Is there a 9mm that can be converted pretty easily? Tell me what you've heard.

[armoredman]

No, haven't heard of that here, but I think the Russian Stechkin was one, large mag in 7.62 TOK, select fire, too, IIRC. Probably nobody is interested as the cartridge itself is fading into obscurity, and 9mm becomes almost the world military issue caliber.

[Walt-Sherrill]

Why hasn't a gun company made a high cap 7.62x25 pistol...

Probably because the round isn't an ideal personal defense.  Its powerful to a fault, and likely to cause unanticipated problems -- going where no bullet has gone before.   Its strength (its  ability to penetrate) is also its weakness.

Its a novelty.  I would NOT use it as a personal defense round if I had an option..

[CZooter42]

I think it would serve well for many purposes. Cheap ammo means more practice, plinking, whatever. High capacity follows the low caliber, but it's not too low. I don't trust the 5.7 as a man-stopper, I would much rather have two .30 holes for each shot and some barrier penetration beforehand. And the thing is, all it would take is a large frame for the hi-cap mag with a rail, a little slide release knob, and a sensible mag release to turn this C&R novelty into an all purpose beater gun. If I was CZ, I would develop such a conversion. Better grips would be nice too, maybe crimson traces.
The stechkin was mainly in 9x18 it'd be rare to see one in tok, or even one at all. Ugly little subgun it is though, right?

[Walt-Sherrill]

If I was CZ, I would develop such a conversion. Better grips would be nice too, maybe crimson traces.

It's not really the same CZ...  The CZ that built the CZ-52 is the same one that built their highly regarded long guns, the CZ-50 and the CZ-70.  That company was converted by its Communist owners to building motorcycles and heavy equipment.  The current line of CZ-75, 82, 83, is a different member of what is now a private corporation -- they kept the name and some of the history, but the CZ that built the 52 is not the CZ that built the CZ-75.  

CZ-BRNO is very unlikely to have any commercial interest in developing a gun on what is basically a milsurp round -- one that while powerful is not a proven self-defense round.  The strange thing about the Tok round is that ONLY the Soviets [and the Chinese] used it much at all, and they were much more focused on long guns and, later, submachine guns, for comabt use.

The Tok round would probably be pretty effective in taking out a car engine, but probably no better at stopping a person than the .357 SIG round.  Or the .40 round, 10mm, or the 9mm +P.   Much of its power will be expended AFTER it has gone through the 'perp' and it may literally be "OVERKILL."

Its like having 800 horsepower in a car, but little thin hard tires -- all that force isn't doing you much good, if you can't make it work for you.

Now, if you need to take out a concrete block wall...

[CZooter42]

I say cc with a CZ52 is like carrying a snub-nosed AK47. I like that it's an accurate gun for shot placement, but I like even better that you could place that shot through just about anything, short of an engine block. Cheap and loud, how you gonna beat it? One shot, hit the BG or not, someone's going to need fresh pants, you know?

[armoredman]

Well, there is a legal laibilty problem, many jurisdictions insist you be responable for where the bullet goes, silly little things like that. If you overpenetrate, and take out Grandma down the street, with a round known for overpenetration, and that you knew would overpenetrate, you can be held legally liable, both criminal and civil. I have fired the CZ-52, it doesn't impress me the way my PO1 does. My PO1 is more compact, better concealment, better caliber, better capacity, better trigger arrangement, better sights, etc. The CZ-52 was years ahead of it's time as a big military handgun, and it did a good job, but a CCW peice it isn't, not really. if I had to, I would use one, but it would be a last choice.
BTW, if you want a "snub nosed AK", Atlantic Arms has them for under $600.

[skucera]

Since the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev round occupies more space in the grip than a 9 mm Parabellum round, not less, you're unlikely to get a 20 round magazine in a pistol that can't fit 20 rounds of 9 mm. Some folks like to think of the CZ 52 as a poor man's FN Five-SeveN, but the Tokarev round is larger and more powerful. That power promotes over-penetration where the 5.7 round's lower bullet weight and lower power limits penetration.

I hate to bring it up, but people have been debating the merits of big, heavy, slow bullets against the theory that smaller, lighter, but faster bullets cause as much damage to human beings. This debate has been going on since the advent of smokeless powder more than 100 years ago. The 7.63 mm Mauser pistol round that the Tokarev round copies was an early example of the small, light, fast debate. It was designed by military rifle manufacturers... wartime is when over-penetration is not an issue, but peacetime civilian use brings with it other practical considerations, like over-penetration. The liability of carrying a CZ 52 concealed is just too daunting for me.

I should state my bias too. I believe in big, heavy bullets that expend their energy into the target. Up until last year when I sold my CZ 97 I've almost always had a .45 or .44 in my bedside pistol safe. I'll get one again (soon, I hope). My CZ 52 is for self-defense only as a backup to other pistols.

However, I love shooting my CZ 52. Don't get me wrong. It's just not my ideal CCW pistol.

Scott

[CZ Prime]

I would like a high cap 52 for opponents in Lv III body armour. Would give them a nasty surprise I think. I understand that there is a JHP round in 7.62x25 now too. It would not be my first choice as a defense round, I much prefer the 9mm myself. But the 52 is more then accurate and would do well as an emergency weapon. I wonder if it would be a decent hunting round for deer with the JHP loading. Hmm, maybe CZ-52 handgun hunting would be worth investigating.

[phoenix12879]

I'm not sure if anybody is producing the JHP anymore commercially, but Hornaday has a 90Grn JHP Bullet for handloaders that I use in my CZ52

[CZooter42]

I bet you could fit at least 15 rounds of .30 tok into a service-size pistol. CZ prime, I'm with you- I would rather have a round like this that I am confident will do the job, armor, door, brick wall, or not. I like the CZ P-01 a lot too, it is the ideal ccw- I can't even think of a better piece. But a P-01 in 7.62x25 would be pretty bleep beastly.
For those who say any overpenetrating round will kill grandma, a girl scout, or an unborn baby every  time- these innocent types don't just hang onto BGs' backs all day long, waiting to get shot. I'snt it more risky to miss with a less accurate round and possibly hit someone else? The CZ52 is far from a ccw legend, but its good features make it a hell of a truck gun. Take those features, namely the round, put them into a modern arm and it would be on the cover of every gun rag in the country.

[Wallew]

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Check out which rounds do and which rounds DO NOT penetrate a kevlar helmet...

[CZooter42]

Yeah, I saw that. O_P beats the **#% out of MythBusters when it comes to guns. I sent him an email a while ago asking about the CZ52 in the waterbox, but he hasn't responded. Probably because he doesn't know where to get enough water for it. I wonder, though, how it is against real IIIA armor, not just brain buckets. if he used .22 reed, forget it. Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols, but .22 cal sabots in .30 tok are something else entirely.
Shooting stuff is still fun.

[woadyurt]

Wolf has hollowpoints for it. I shot some 2X4s and some newspaper bundles and they made some nasty, big, ragged holes.

[CZ Prime]

Yeah, I could not remember if it was Wolf or S&B but I remembered seeing a 7.62x25 JHP load out there. Might have to pick up a case, just in case Racoon City happens (just kidding).