Author Topic: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.  (Read 34710 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline USMCDevilDoc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« on: June 01, 2008, 02:17:16 PM »
Hello Mrs. Armoredman and others,

  I am trying to get the Mrs. to the range with me but she has a fear of guns.  I travel all the time and I feel that the Mrs. knowing where the defense weapons are in the house is just as important as her knowing how to use them.  I would greatly appreciate any insight into turning her existing fear (although understandable) into a healthy respect for the weapon.  Then getting her the practical experience necessary to defend herself when I'm not around.

  I suppose this request is somewhat selfish on my part.  I wish to subside my greatest fear as well.  I can't stand the thought of something horrible happening to her while I'm deployed to the other side of the world.

  My initial thoughts are to buy the Mrs. a Sig Mosquito .22LR for familiarization and target practice then moving her into a 2075 RAMI once she has been reasonably acclimated to safe handling and firing.  She agrees that she needs to learn but when the time comes to go to the range it simply never comes to fruition.

 A woman's feedback and insights here would be most helpful.

Many thanks,
Doc Newton, HM1(SW/FMF) USN/USMC
Semper Fidelis!!!

Mrs-Armoredman

  • Guest
Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 12:03:08 PM »
I don't think your being selfish at all. You just want your wife to be safe. There is a video out there that introduces women to firearms. It's called A woman's guide to Firearms with Lee Percell and narriated by Gerald McRainey. It's a great information tool for all who want to learn to chose the right forearm for them and shoot safely. Thats how my husband got me into shooting. I went through lots of firearms untill I got my 2075 Rami 9mm. It fits me like a glove and I feel comfortable shooting it. Taking a ccw course helped alot too. It helped me learn the laws of my state and what to do and not to do. This might help your wife. Give it a try and let me know.

Thank for asking.

Offline Neverfox

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 02:56:51 AM »
Bump for the fact that this is an important topic. I'm going through the same thing. My wife is fully supportive (though a tad surprised) by my desire to arm the household. She's been to the range once but had tremendous anxiety from the noise and the idea of it. She picked up a CZ 75 and immediately put it down on the bench and shivered like it was possessed. I'm at a loss. I want her to be able to defend herself; having guns for defense when only I can operate them is simply missing half the point. I'm hoping that she can train on my 453 (17 HMR) but eventually she needs to be OK with the 9mm, since that will be primary "house" gun.
75 SP-01 (9mm & .22 LR), 83 (.380 ACP), 527 Carbine (7.62x39), 202 B Bobwhite (16ga.)
Bark River Smoke Jumper, Spyderco Sage, Victorinox SwissTool Spirit

Offline badge38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 05:52:02 AM »
 Give her time ........  ;)
Sig Sauer 225, Equinox 220
Ed Brown  Massad Ayoob 1911
S&W M&P 9c, 642 Airweight

Offline Mezzoduomo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 06:45:44 AM »
Give her time ........  ;)

+1 to that...

This past weekend my wife said the following words: "I think I'd like to have a Springfield EMP 9mm.  I can rack the slide just fine and its pretty".  I was stunned.  Stunned and thrilled.  Stunned, thrilled and nervous.  (My budget can't take having 2 gun collectors in the family).

It's been a multi-year process of encouragement.  She has had a Beretta 87 in 22LR for several years.  We took a basic pistol class together years ago, and she bought that gun....but has only has shot it maybe 5 times in 3 years.  She goes through these phases where she's sort of interested, then pulls away....then interested again, then overwhelmed, etc. 

About 2 months ago, she took CCW instruction with my son.  That went well.  Then finally she went to the store with my son after lots of encouragement.  Patience is a virtue... 







Jack Straw

  • Guest
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 12:24:01 PM »
Well, my long and checkered history with women and shooting has shown me that the best way to get your lady eased into the sport is a nice friendly .22 rifle; quiet, easy to hit with, and there's WAY less of a macho, bad guy image to overcome.   

For the first few sessions stay away from the topic of defense and don't put up a darned silhouette target of a bad guy with a gun.

I've also found it's best not to go to an established range but to a countryside setting where there is no one else around to make a neophyte shooter nervous.

Indoor ranges are especially alien, noisy, and intimidating to new shooters. A trip to the boonies to shoot can be a pleasant outing and you will not have to keep the ear muffs on every second while yelling over the din.  Pack some sandwiches and stay awhile.

After a couple of such outings bring out the rimfire pistol or revolver (if she hasn't already asked to shoot it) and she will be right on board.

Some may disagree but I think a new shooter, male or female, should not start out with a lightweight 9 or 40.  They just have too much muzzle blast and recoil.

Whatever approach you take just be safe, go slow, keep your own expectations reasonable.   Remember that firearms and shooting, as much as we love them, are not for everybody.




























y

Offline Neverfox

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 12:37:10 PM »
Good advice, JS. I actually came to realize most of that after it was too late. I pretty much broke all those rules all the way down to the target type. I'm hoping that I can still undo the damage. I should never have taken her to an indoor range first, tried to start her on a handgun or put in so much in the context of defense.
75 SP-01 (9mm & .22 LR), 83 (.380 ACP), 527 Carbine (7.62x39), 202 B Bobwhite (16ga.)
Bark River Smoke Jumper, Spyderco Sage, Victorinox SwissTool Spirit

Offline twoguns

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 04:22:51 PM »
Howdy folks,

I just wanted to add some of my thoughts to an excellent thread.  First for the most part I agree with the thoughts/suggestions offered by Mr. Jack Straw.  Most, but not all really.

I do think it is important to take the new shooter to an isolated area, where they do not feel pressure from constant noise and other armed folks around them.  Over nearly 4 decades now I have been a police firearms instructor for the various departments/agencies I have worked for, in addition to doing my normal law enforcement duties.  Because of that, I have often been approached by other officers I worked with, who wanted to get their wives into shooting, primarily for the same concern.  When they were working evenings or midnight shifts, or were away attending law enforcement training courses, they wanted to know their wife knew how to grab the handgun that was in their bedroom, and make use of it if required to save herself or other family members.

My first suggestion was - DON'T TRY TO TEACH THEM YOURSELF.  I simply feel things will go more smoothly if someone besides the husband is the one working with the spouse, getting them comfortable with a firearm.  I also feel there is nothing wrong with starting them off with a handgun of some type.  That is about the only point I disagree with Mr. Jack on.  I simply do not see any great need or requirement to start them off with a rifle.  I do not have an issue with it, but I simply do not feel it has to be started in this manner either.  I will simply say in my decades of working with the spouses of other folks, I have simply opted to start all of them off with a handgun.

My second observation is that because you already have handgun A, that does NOT mean that your wife/spouse will feel it fits their hands as well as it fits yours.  It may be too large in the grips, the controls to far from their fingers, its manual of arms too complex for them, or even too heavy or too light.  Then there is also the issue of caliber to be thrown into the mix as well.

For the average non-shooting wife, I think a revolver is an excellent self-defense weapon.  I think a J frame Smith makes an excellent back up weapon.  But that said, as a choice of a nightstand handgun, I personally think it leaves a lot to be desired.  I hold the view the J frame can be mastered, but it takes some work to do so, and then enough regular practice with it to maintain that proficency level.  I shot possible qual scores with mine (ie, perfect scores), but I practiced with mine often to stay sharp with it.  I also started off using a revolver as a LEO nearly 40 years ago, so it was not a foreign platform when I picked it as a back up weapon. 

But for a nightstand handgun I think it tends to be too small for the average shooter, especially a female who may not want to shoot it as often as needed to be proficient with it.  I would suggest a K frame Smith, with round butt grip (so either a grip adapter or compact Pachmayr grips could be added if desired by the wife), with either a 2", 3" or 4" barrel.  Who should make the final choice on barrel lenght in my view - the wife.  She is the one who will be grabbing it in a pressure filled situation, and only she knows which one seems to balance the best for her.

The average firearms instructor already knows that every handgun does not fit everyone equally.  They also realize when technique issues arise on the range, they can often be solved by changing to a different handgun.  They also normally have more than a few possible weapons for the new shooter to handle and make initial selections from.  I personally think a husband is more inclined to feel "hey I shoot X fine, so I can get my wife to shoot it ok too".  Guys I am not trying to throw stones at you at all, just being honest.  More than once I stepped in after a husband had been trying to train their wife, and keep hearing I really appreciate your attitude and the way you are talking to me.  You don't yell and you keep asking for my feedback on how a gun feels.  My husband never did things that way and kept me pissed off while I was trying to learn to shoot.

Guys ask yourself this question and be honest with yourself.  Would you teach your wife to drive a motor vehicle?  If you said no, then why in the world should you try to teach them to shoot.  Just food for thought.
That is why I suggest someone who is a competent firearms instructor start off working with the wife.  Either a police firearms instructor or a CCW instructor, but you want them working in a one on one basis, not on an indoor range, unless it is empty except for the two of them.  You also want your wife using a handgun that feels good to "them", whatever it is.  A good instructor should already have a variety of things handy they can let her shoot.  Or ask around among your shooting friends, for various handguns you can borror temporarily to let your wife handle and possible shoot. 

But don't limit her to a handgun that you already own.  If your wife does not feel comfortable holding the handgun, the odds suggests she will not shoot it well either.  To me 95% of shooting properly takes place between the ears, the rest is physical.  Any shooter who feel confident holding a handgun is likely to shoot it much better than they will with one they do not feel fits them well.

Also remember the entire purpose of this exercise if to get your wife to the point where she can safely defend herself and your family members, when you are not around.  That does not dictate that the handgun has to be loaded with the hottest round that exists.  While I advice against anyone carrying FMJ ammo for self defense, and feel a .380acp is simply too light to be an adequate SD caliber, I have no issues with standard pressure lead SWC ammo being used for self defense purposes.  There is also a place for wadcutter rounds, if that is all your spouse can master.  Remember, we are generally talking about distances across a bedroom (not 15 to 25 yards).  At close distances a target wadcutter is a much more effective load than many people would realize. 

While I personally prefer a JHP load for self-defense, I have also carried lead SWC and lead HP loads in the past when required to do so.  I did not feel poorly armed, I just did not carry the load I preferred.  But the bottom line to me is where the rounds are placed are far more important than whether they are standard, +P, or +P+ in muzzle velocity.  Over the course of my career, I have been forced more than once to use both standard and +P JHP ammo in deadly force situations.  Never once did the badguy complain about the bullet I was using.  But my training allowed me to put the rounds where they needed to be to have the desired effects. 

I feel the choice of both caliber and ammo level should primarily left up to the person who will be using that weapon in a self-defense situation, meaning here the wife, not hubby.  Remember a caliber that you shoot tight groups with, simply might not work at all for her.  That said, I do suggest that someone choice the largest caliber they can shoot proficiently, whatever it turns out to be.  If that equates to a .38spc or 9mm caliber, I have used both in deadly force situations and am typing as you read this now.  So they will do their job as long as the shooter does theirs.

The bottom line is not everyone is comfortable with a handgun too.  It may end up that a double barrel shotgun turns into the best choice for a self defense weapon for a wife.  Again, only they can make that choice.  If that is the case, there are several law enforcement brands of reduced recoil buckshot and slug loads, that at bedroom distances would still be more than effective enough to handle things. 

I also agree not to stress the concept of shooting someone from the start.  Remember when you first learned to ride a bike, you did it in steps.  To me the same principles should be done with teaching a non-shooter to become proficient with a handgun.  I also go out of my way from day one, to try to convince them that shooting is fun.  I keep saying, hey if you are not having fun, tell me because I am doing something wrong and need to change that.  I actually believe in that statement, and mean it when it is said.  Sometimes just saying the same thing but with different words is all it takes to make a major difference.

Start them out with standard targets.  Those that show clearly when they have been struck are useful in my view, as they give instant feedback to the shooter.  At some point, you will want to start using different targets.  I have a ton of silhouette targets in my personal inventory, simply because over the years, I normally placed a personal order from the company I was making my office purchases from too.  So that I could continue to train with my "current qual targets", whatever they were.  At some point you may want to change to a more realistic badguy type target.  But I am not of the view that is the first target a non-shooter should start off aiming at.  That throws too many things into play at first in my view.  You are complicating things at the very point you are striving to keep them "simple". 

Do you have to use realistic targets?  I am not so sure that you do, but at the same time see nothing wrong with them - once the person is ready to move into them.  But again, their feedback is a large part of that change, if and when it is made.  Don't forget that the average wife is blessed with a very strong maternal instinct.  She will draw upon that when needed in my view.  My job is simply to help her develop the skills necessary to make her a proficient shot and understand elements of self-defense shooting.  If she is ever faced with a threat to her and her family, I feel that maternal instinct will kick in automatically, without much "pep talk" on my part. 

While I have tailored my comments towards getting a wife started in self-defense shooting, I honestly think these suggestions would apply equally to anyone who is a non-shooter.  This is an interesting and important topic in my view.  I am simply giving you one instructor's point of view.  Others may disagree, and that is fine.  I am simply making suggestions that have worked well for me over the last 4 decades..

twoguns
 

Offline Thren68

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 06:43:18 PM »
I'm going to strongly agree with TwoGuns.

1.  Don't take your wife out shooting.  Find a good local trainer or failing that a knowledgeable friend to take her out.  Just the extra stress of having you standing behind her will throw her off.  Set up the outing, drop her off, and go catch a movie.  State rifle associations might be able to give you leads on instructors.

2.  Beg/borrow/rent appropriate firearms.  A 22LR rifle is a great way to start.  A reliable 22 handgun is the second choice (which the Sig Mosquito isn't known for).  Avoid centerfire handguns that are too small or might not fit the hand.  CZ 75's, 229's and XD's are usually a good fit for smaller handed folks.  A Bersa or CZ83 would also probally work well.  Keep to the 9mm or smaller.  The recoil of a 40+ drives away folks.

3.  For the home defense aspect.  Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS) works every time.  Supplying a weapon with a magazine, safety, mag release, and possibly a slide to cycle isn't a good idea.  A good J-Frame S&W or the new Ruger LCR is the ticket.  Point and pull trigger.  Set it up with a phone and flashlight in a lockable windowless room and you've kept her as safe as possible.

The isolated outdoor area is a great idea.  If you can set that up, go for it.

Offline Karen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 07:42:33 PM »
Most of my female friends like guns. Mostly because I get them excited about shooting and take them myself. It's fun. It's relaxed, no pressure, and no men.
Most city dwelling men I know, are scary as h$#% when they get a gun in their hand. They may have never held a pistol before, but they are now suddenly experts. There is a strange ego that immediately engulfs most men when they handle a gun.

Many women see guns as illegal killing machines, and they are. Guns were invented to kill people, and just walk down the street with a pistol in your hand and see how fast you get arrested. Self defense is almost always the wrong issue to bring up when teaching most women to shoot. There are exceptions to this. It's fun to shoot.

Hire a "feminine" female instructor (non-lesbo, non-cop type). Call the NRA for certified instructors. And I think ruger 22-45 makes a good teaching pistol, because it has full size pistol features, but only shoots a 22. Or a CZ75 with a 22 top would be perfect, so she will already feel good about the CZ frame when she goes to a 9mm. Many men make the mistake of thinking women can't shoot an auto or they can't handle full power pistols. Don't give her a .44 mag to start, but a 38 or 9mm should be fine.

If I have enough time and space, i teach girls to shoot a 22 rifle, then my 30 carbine, then pistols.  It's much easier to accidentally shoot yourself with a pistol than a rifle. But in a city, its the indoor range.

 look at this vid. he is a cop. an instructor. an "EXPERT".  Do you act like this when you have a gun in your hand? Ask your wife.  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxegEMWmNOA


Offline sigsauerfan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 07:43:27 PM »
wwoaw.  i  agree 100%  with  two guns.

i've faced   the  same  situation  with  my  wife,  tried  to  play teacher/student  with  her  but  at  the  end, i  appointed  a  teacher  on  a  one  on  one multi session  and  it  worked  very  well,she  now  like  to  shoot  my  ruger 22-50 .22,  and  she's  very  good,she  now  can  shoot  a  tennis  ball  in  motion  on  the  ground  and  she  hit  80%  of  the  time.

the  teacher  got  a  great  effect  on  her  understanding  about  how  it  work,  and  i'm  glad  i  did  that  move,  now  every  saturday  she  ask  me  ''honey, are  we  going  to  the  range  this  afternoon??'''

then  after  our  range  sessions,  we  look  at  our  respective  targets  and  make  jokes  about  it,  it's  all  i  asked  for, a  little  intake  of  interest  from  her  part,  the  teacher  helped  a  lot .

Offline twoguns

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PM »
Howdy Miss Karen,

I wish we had a roflmao icon, I would sure be using it maam.  There was absolutely no need for the "instructor" to be handling a loaded firearm, especially in front of what appears to be civilians.  He should have checked every firearms present in that room, and then had at least two other safety persons check those weapons behind him.  I reckon he is a cop, since he is so marked.  But he sure does not act like he is an instructor.  If he is, I will say he is not much of one for sure maam.  If I had to bet, one of his superiors tagged him to conduct that presentation based simply on the belief that civilians would view any "police" as a firearms expert.  Sadly, that is simply not true in my experience. 

The sad fact of life I see is that departments and agencies have simply become far too concerned with being "politically correct".  Many times when I was running a police range, I assigned instructors to stand behind specific shooters, and "babysit" them to insure they would not shoot someone else or theirself.  There were some I personally felt had not need to be issued a firearm period.  But everytime I put that in writing, I was told by management that the employee checked an important block and could not be fired simply because they were not proficient with firearms.  I kept documenting things as I simply saw that as part of my job as a police firearms instructor. 

I sure don't see this guy as an "expert" and personally feel he should have been disciplined severely for making such a blatant violation of basic firearms safety rules.  He was using a loaded weapon, and he apparently choose to point the muzzle at something he did not intend to shoot/destroy.  It is not rocket science to me what his qualifications to be an instructor are - non existent!!!!!

I cringe whenever the word "expert" is used.  The only times I have tolerated it were when judges pronounced me an "expert" for purposes of my courtroom testimony.  That and a quarter would get me a cup of coffee, if it only cost .25.  But being an "expert" did allow me to offer my opinion as well as tesifying to facts I possessed.  It was the opinion ability that the term "expert" allowed.

I do agree with you to a large degree that a female instructor is a great choice, when one is available.  But 3 or 4 decades ago, they were simply extremely rare.  They are still not as common in this day and time and I would personally like to see.  Especially given the fact that from a phyical build standpoint, the Good Lord built females to be inherently better shots than men.  The sad fact is that very few females work to develop their shooting skills.  I have grinned everytime I helped a cop's wife learn to shoot, and then later had her calling me on the phone to tell me she had outshot hubby that day on the range.  ;D  ;D  ;D .

In 4 decades I have worked with exactly one female firearms instructor.  She was incredible, and had been a member of my agency's pistol team as well.  But she started life as a cop in TN, and would have probably hit on any cute female she was working with  ::) .

While I do agree with you that far too many men feel a marked increased in their hormones when handling firearms and standing around women, please don't throw that dirt on all of us maam.  Some of us do not  :P .  Seriously, there are males who are well quailified to help others, men and women, learn to shoot properly.  But that said, I do agree, the average female non-shooter getting started would most likely feel more comfortable with a female instructor.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that shooting, by anyone, should be fun.  If it is not, then they are doing something wrong, or need to rethink their training regimen.  Even when your shooting is done to maintain your survival shooting skills, it can still be fun at the same time. 

Another suggestion beyond targets that show when they have been hit, for that more immediate feedback is balloons taped to a larger target.  But at first they should be taped down so they will not move in the wind.  You are simply trying to teach proper sight picture, grip and trigger squeeze at that point.  Otherwise they will likely get very frustrated trying to shoot a moving target, long before they are capable and confident or trying that skill.   

I am going to hush, as I am still rolling my eyes so much from watching that vid that it is hard to focus clearly on my puter screen right now  :o  ::) .

twoguns

Offline sigsauerfan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 12:30:48 PM »
beeeww,  cant  believe  a   dea  agent  did  that!!  he  hold  the  pistol  in  the  air,   did  not  looked  for  a  chambered  round  and  sling-shot  the  slide...and  pull  the  trigger!!  from  the  beggining  ,when  taking  the   pistol off  the  table,  i   knew  he  wasn't  paying  much  attention  to  the  pistol,  his  focus  was  clearly on  the  crowd,  big  mistake!!

Offline Artist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 03:18:07 PM »
Ok, first, Mr. DEA Man, what a moron!

Second, I taught my daughter to shoot and it was great for both of us (but then she trusts me a lot). I'm always very calm, not a yeller and I do know how to make things fun. I let her take her own time and had her practice with both the 75B SA and the Shadow at home using snap caps until she had functionality down pat. Until she was comfortable with ALL the controls, understood all safety requirements and was able to easily rack the slide I wouldn't even think of bringing her to the range. After several days she became quite comfortable with the pistols and reached the point where she was the one that wanted to get out and shoot it for real.

I do think being her dad helped, starting her at a younger age helped and her being a Pro-Gun Republican helped too. When we got to the range I went over all safety procedures again, and let her watch me for a while. When her turn came, she was only slightly nervous on the first few shots, soon it was "I need more ammo dad". We had booths next to each other and when I saw she was doing fine I shot one pistol in my booth and she shot the other in hers. I was there if she had any questions and the couple times she had a FTF (she cleared her own after I showed her on the first although she wanted me to watch and make sure she was doing it right). The only problem I had with her was she was bogarting the Shadow (yeah, it's still her favorite and the only one she wants to shoot, not because the 75B SA is a problem for her but because she LOVES the Shadow, I had to promise to leave it to her in the will)

I do have to brag a little on her, she was shooting better then most of the guys there. The only issue she had was the smoke in the confines of a range made her asthma act up and she had to quit after about 30 minutes (The Chicago area has no public outdoor ranges close by since Fox Valley closed years ago).

On a lighter note... I taught my Wife how to drive when she was an adult, now THAT WAS SCARY! I still curl up in a little ball when I think about it.
CZ 75 SP01 Shadow, strong enough for a man, but she likes it too!

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19875
Re: Need Suggestions on getting the Mrs. to shoot.
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 05:53:19 AM »
I agree with everything said here. We have several female firearms instructors in my Dept, and they are quite helpful to our female officers. I also agree I have seen many more than one staff member that should be issued a water pistol to keep the rest of the world safer.  ::)
Best of luck to you!