Slide release - MAJOR PAIN IN THE THUMB!

[shamus]

Quote: IT MIGHT be hard on the sear/hammer interface

ahhh. I see.

Just the sound alone of a slide slamming on an empty chamber tells me it can't be the best of things.

[elsolo75]

Quote:Ok, I think I have this figured out...

After further testing, it appears this is only an issue with an empty magazine in the gun. With no magazine, the slide release works fine.

I can't imagine WHY somebody would want to have a gun at slidelock, then insert an empty mag before letting the slide forward?

[bruss01]

Quote:I can't imagine WHY somebody would want to have a gun at slidelock, then insert an empty mag before letting the slide forward?

Ok, imagine transporting your gun in a state where the gun has to be unloaded and the mags have to be unloaded before putting them into a locked case and taking them out to the vehicle. Imagine limited space to safely store mags away from dirt, grime, pet hair etc.  Dirty mags make for dirty guns. It makes sense to store the empty magazine in the gun.  We lock the slide open so that every member of the party may inspect the chamber (if we're accidentally caught with a round in the chamber while transporting, all or any one of us might face criminal charges.  Thus, each of us sees for themselves.  That's the way it's GOT to be). Now let's close the action and load it up.  What's this lever called in the manual?  Oh yeah, the Slide Release.  Well, that's what we want to do so we can lock'er up and hit the road.  After you've fired your last round at the range, and the slide is open on your empty magazine, it's time to pack up and go home.  The mag is already in the gun... tell me again what this little lever is called in the Owner's Manual?  Oh, yeah - Slide Release.  Well, that's what I want to do so we can put it back in the box and go home. After we get home, it's got to be opened again for cleaning. Now imagine putting the gun away at home - again, best place to store the empty mag?  In the gun.  I don't know about you, but I don't store my guns with actions open. Easy, hit the slide relase, ergo - ready to be stored or transported.  Except it didn't work that way with the CZ's.  Hope that helped your imagination.

Yes, one can use a two-handed slingshot approach as an alternative.  So WTF is the GD slide release lever supposed to be for, if not to let the slide go forward?  There were no instructions stating that it was not to be used, or only to be used under certain circumstances.  No other semi-auto I have handled has come with such a caveat.  I will use the CZ's, enjoy them, and still raise an eyebrow when I have to give them "special treatment" just to put them away or store them for transport.

[stretch64]

bruss01, it'll probably improve with a little use. Right now all the springs are tight. Load the magazine to full capacity and let it sit that way for a few days. That will allow the mag spring to take its set and may improve things. Also, the recoil spring hasn't taken a set yet, so it's also providing a little more tension against the release than it will after a few hundred rounds.

[Walt-Sherrill]

Let me try to sum things up:

Many folks say the SLIDE STOP is the proper name, not SLIDE RELEASE, and its intended to hold the slide OPEN, not to release the slide.

The proper use of that little lever is a point of continuing debate across gun forums.  But, the device is generally called the SLIDE STOP in most parts lists.  And some purists will tell you that you should NEVER use anything but the sling-shot method to release the slide.  

Angus Hobdell (and many gun enthusiasts who know something about the inner workings of guns) suggest you should never drop the slide on an empty gun with full force -- the very thing you're doing.  At best, you should do it by hand, slowly, so that the sear/hammer doesn't potentially get damaged.

One acquaintance is one of several trainners (a professional shooter and instructor) who works with a firm training our combat troops, including special ops, in how to use weapons in combat.  

They're not working with recruits, but with experienced soldiers, many of whom have seen combat and who are trying to improve their skills.  These instructors teach them to use the slide stop to release the slide, not the slingshot method.  That's because they've found that in combat, under stress, pressure, etc., many folks using the slingshot method end up with a gun that hasn't gone into battery.

The slide stop/slide release on your gun shouldn't be that hard to use when used as intended (when releasing the slide on a newly inserted FULL mag), but your particular application may be one that is less common (i.e., closing the slide on an empty magazine) and not one that the CZ slide release/slide stop is optimized for.

Assuming, as you seemingly do, that all guns are alike in this, is not correct.  That's sort of like comparing a Browning Hi-Power 32 pound mainspring (hammer spring) to the CZ 19 pound hammer spring and wondering why the CZ spring is sooo much weaker.  (It isn't; different gun designs require different mechanisms and springs; a 32 pound hammer spring in a Double Action makes it very hard to use.)

I guess you've found a quirk of the CZ design.  Every gun generally has a quirk -- you don't always find it right away.

[dgludwig]

Even though one might prefer the "sling-shot" method for releasing the slide to recharge a pistol, it is advisable to include releasing the slide via the slide release (stop?) lever practice in any self-defense training course involving a semi-auto pistol. Recharging a pistol using the slide release may be the only viable (practical) option in the event your "weak" hand is injured or otherwise occupied (i.e.,holding a flashlight, grappling with the bg, etc.).

[elsolo75]

...and when you are unloading your firearm for storage or transport, the most accepted menthod is:
1.) remove magazine
2.) retract slide and inspect chamber for clear
3.) lower slide and point gun downrange, then dryfire it on the empty chamber

If you choose to then reinsert the empty magazine into the firearm for transport or storage (not recommended) do it after you lowered the slide and dropped the hammer.

Letting the slide go forward with an "empty" magazine in the gun gives one more opportunity to load the chamber on that gun, if you were wrong about the emptyness of said magazine.

[elsolo75]

One reason the CZ requires more force to push the slide stop lever down wile an empty mag is in the gun is because you are trying to force the magazine follower to "nosedive" in the mag. It is pushing on only the very front of the follower. I prefer my autoloading firearms' magazines to be nosedive-resistant, which is what you were complaining about.

I am very familiar with safe transport and storage of firearms for legal and safety reasons. I am a very active competetive shooter in California, we have some of the worst firearm laws in existance. I am also a seasoned Range officer at various pistol matches, and thus it is my 'job' to make sure shooters comply with the accepted safety rules. I'll tell you that a pistol with a magazine still in it does is DEFINATELY not considered "unloaded or clear" at any pistol ranges or matches I attend, FWIW.

[Blankwaffe]

Im sure training methods have changed since I was LEO SWAT.
But we were taught to use the sling shot method when charging a pistol.One reason being that the slide being retracted to the rear fully and sharply released gives added slide speed to charge the round.The sling shot method also prevents a poor release,or failed release of the slide stop.Such as thumbing the top edge of the grip or what have you.Stuff like that happens in stressful situations trust me.Heck you would be surprised how many folks fail to click the safety off of a SA or a safety position on a decocker like the 92FS.They draw and jerk away at the trigger,no bang bang,just jerk jerk on the trigger.Thats enough to get you shot for sure.
If you get the right instructors they can get you to the point that your almost stupid with stress during training.
The only time the slide release was used was on one hand reloads to train in the event that the weak hand was disabled.
Lets not forget what to do if the weapon fails to fire when doing one hand drills...you gota rack the slide and clear the weapon to load a fresh round.
But training to use the slide stop to release the slide in a reload does not insure proper one handed reload technique.It all has to be practiced together.There are other variables to consider.
The only sure way I have found to try and make sure that things work as smoothly as possible in high stress situations is to train and practice alot.Once you get into a routine its done automatically without thinking.But all bases have to be covered in the case that something interupts your primary routine.Such as an injury to the weak hand which will throw your reloads off and other things as mentioned.Or even worse an injury to the strong hand which means the whole process of firing and reloading has been changed.
So you need to practice firing drills with your weak hand just as much as your strong hand.
For Military and LEO or even defensive applications like a property owner who uses a primary weapon like a rifle or shotgun,need to practice transition drill of going to the secondary weapon(pistol).This is important training in the case of running your primary weapon dry(which should not happen if you train,but happens especially with FA) or a primary weapon failure.This is one of the main drills we ran in SWAT.
You also have to plan how and where the mags are located on your body for reloads.The mags should be able to be accessed by both strong and weak hand.Samething with your pistol.You need to be able to draw the pistol with the weak hand.If you cant reach the pistol with your weak hand while holstered then you need to change your carry,or practice and maybe loose a little belly fat until you can.
Sorry,got off topic again.Its Walts fault

[shamus]

Quote:then dryfire it on the empty chamber

Clarify: gently lower the hammer on the empty chamber.

[elsolo75]

The only accepted method in IPSC or USPSA to prove your handgun is unloaded before you can reholster it and leave the line is as follows:

"If you are finished, unload and show clear"
"If clear, Hammer down, Holster"

USPSA rule: 8.3.7.1
Self-loaders- Release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any)


and yes, I have seen other  shooters "unload and show BANG" rather than show clear (I was not the RO at the time). The seemingly redundant steps and the seemingly unneccessary steps are REQUIRED for good reason.

[shamus]

USPSA rule: 8.3.7.1 is a a crock. You just do not dry-fire your weapon.

[elsolo75]

I take it you have neve shot any competition with your pistol(s)? If you refuse to follow the rule requiring you to dryfire the pistol after unloading and showing clear, you will be DQ'ed and asked to go home.

What makes you think dry-fire is so bad?
Thousands of pistol shooters do it every day, with no ill effects. I have dry fired my CZ's many thousands of times without any parts breakage, not even the infamous roll pin.
Heck, the IPSC/USPSA rulebook even has a section in it about dryfire practice (page 7, 2004 ed.)

There is a highly reguared book called "Refinement and Repetition" by grand master shooter Bryan Anderson, it is a collection of dry-fire drills. Go over to Brian Enos' forum and see that dryfire practice is highly recommended to improve skills. If all the top IPSC/USPSA shooters recommend something, there is a pretty good chance it is not a bad idea. Most gun owners just shoot their firearms, IPSC shooters wear their guns out with exceptionally high shooting volume.

There are some guns I wouldn't recommend dryfiring, but the CZ-75 is not one of them, nor are any other modern handguns.

[shamus]

Quote:IPSC shooters wear their guns out..

Must be from all that abuse from dry firing and other undesireable practices.    

ISPC is the Way of the Race Gun. It seems that they push the design envelope of their weapons and maybe that can rapidly deteriorate their weapon. Or maybe it's just the soley high shooting volume.  


No, I don't shoot ISPC.  I'm more interested in IDPA but the IDPA rule book makes no mention of dry firing your weapon to prove it's not loaded. My expereince in the world of competive shooting is limited. I could be wrong on the IDPA.

My observations on ISPC and IDPA are based on limited knowledge and expereince.

Dry fire drills. I've nothing against them, but I'd use a snap cap.

[elsolo75]

When I decide to do high volume dry fire drills, I do use a snap cap. But I have no fears of wear or parts breakage from the "unload and show clear" dry fire at the end of each stage at a match.

The whole "race gun" thing it untrue for most IPSC/USPSA shooters. Open and (many)limited class shooters do have specially built race guns, but many folks including myself shoot regular guns in limited, lim-10 and of course production division. I use a regular CZ-75B for those three classes, and do just fine.

The excessive shooting volume is what wears guns out.
Most shooters don't put 10-20,000 rounds through a gun every year, most IPSC shooteras I know do. My #1 CZ is loosening up a little, it only has ~50K through it, when it hits 100K I'll probubly retire it to back up gun.