Author Topic: STEEL in CZs  (Read 4694 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline briang2ad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3276
STEEL in CZs
« on: January 15, 2007, 03:00:38 PM »
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ima...nCZ-75.jpg

What do y'all make of this comment on the 'cartoon' pic.  Any evidence of this - that CZ went to 'cheaper' Western steel to save their machine parts?  I think it is bogus.

Walt-Sherrill

  • Guest
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 03:57:24 PM »
This topic came up once before.

Its BS.  (The source is a comic book, for crying out loud!)

CZs have, throughout their history, been made of finer stuff.

Offline tipoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 06:42:11 AM »
The information comes from the Japanese comic book series "Gunsmith Cats". It features the adventures of 19 years old Irene "Rally" Vincent and her partner, 17 year old Minnie May Hopkins. Together they run a gunshop in Chicago. "Rally" is a firearms expert and clearly knows all about CZs. Hopkins is an explosives expert. Together the two get into many fun, dangerous and sexy adventures because, did I forget to mention, Hopkins is a bounty hunter in her spare time.

This is the source of the info on the quality of the steel in CZs.

tipoc

Offline lazyengineer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 11:54:52 PM »
I never much thought about it, but I wonder.

I had a Pre-B CZ-75 - a 1989 model I believe.  It was the lower one in the comic book photo.  I now have a pre-preB - a 1979 model, which is like the upper one in the photo.   The slide and frame on my 1979 model saw much harder use than the later 1989 model, yet are in better shape than the condition of the 1989 model when I sold it.  

This is all completely non-scientific, and is just based on my own recollection.  What I can do is present you with the condition of the 1979 model, and allow you to compare this to the later models for your own analysis.



I fired thousands of rounds through that 1989 pistol, and eventually sold it because I thought a Baby Eagle was better (I do miss my old 22 year old body, but definantely not the idiocy of the 22 year old mind).  I do recall when I sold it that the enamel finish was starting the bubble, the kidney shapped hole in the cam under the barrel was starting to get peened open, and the slide/frame rails lost their sharpness as well.  I assumed this was nominal wear and tear, the gun still seemed to function fine.

To continue my rambling: I started to miss that gun (The Baby Eagle was a random jamming fiasco that had sharp edges galore).  Some years later I decided I wanted another just like it.  But by then, the dang B models came out.  If I wanted a CZ-85, I'd have bought an 85: I wanted a classic melted looking CZ-75.  So I looked around and finally settled for a 1979 era CZ for a few hundred (I say settled because the slab sides weren't as melted looking as the later Pre-B design).  It was as pictured in the top of the above image.  Not really what I wanted, but my friend needed some money and knew I was looking for a classic CZ.

The history of the 1979 gun was rough.  We were told it came into the US from some kind of South African military/police service.   My friend and I both saw its original condition when it came into the gunshop a few years prior - and it wasn't pretty.  It wasn't even functional.  That gun had seen some serious use and abuse.  The slide stop pin was visibly bent.  To show you what the surface of the gun looked like then, here's a photo of the original grips:



The entire gun looked that way.  The finish was shot.  The gun had obviously not only been abused, but had been fired a heck of a lot too.  Here's what the seer looks like, see how worn it is (still got plenty of life left I bet, but I probably ought to replace that)


Here's the original hammer.  Which is still a great hammer - the sear surfaces look decent enough, but the face is pretty pounded.  (I just replaced it this week because I got tired of a bloody web after IDPA matches from the hammer bite).  Actually, it's probably not the original hammer, since it has the half-cock notch.



The above illistrates that this 1979 pre-pre-B has seen far more use and abuse than my original Pre-B (1989 - the one with the worn slide rails).  Anyway, the 1979 gun was refinished and the non-functioning parts were replaced and my friend eventually bought it.  It still has original frame, slide, barrel, and most of the internals.

Yet, the edges of the slide rails on this gun showed little to none of the rounding wear I saw on my 1989 Pre-B.





The kidney hole in the barrel looks very good:


The frame rails looked good too:




I don't have my 1989 Pre-B with me anymore for a direct comparison, and memories can be funny things.  But from my experience, I will say the claim that Pre-Pre B metalurgy was harder than Pre-B's seems credible enough to me.  Not trying to diss the Pre-B's.  Great guns and I'd be happy as a clam with one.

Offline tipoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2007, 07:22:17 AM »
"Walnut is the best wood in the world for pistol grips." Actually most hardwoods will work equally well. Rosewood, cocobolo, ebony, etc. If our 19 year old firearms expert, gunshop owner and bounty hunter had said that walnut is the best wood for rifle stocks she may have had a case.

Kenichi Sonoda, the author of the comic books "Gunsmith Cats" knows something about guns but is not likely the best source for an expert opinion.

I'm no expert but I can read. According to the text the dust cover was extended to make up for a loss of accuracy that resulted from changeing steels used in manufacturing the slide and frame. How would changeing steels to "meet lower western standards" effect accuracy? Was the steel so soft it could not hold a tolerence? Was it so soft the gun bent and flexed, like the frame of a polymer gun, while shooting?

Like most gun manufacturers CZ  has likely used various steels over the years. Let's leave aside accidents in production like a bad batch getting through. What Sonoda is talking about is a planned switch to a lower grade of steel. So low that it effected the accuracy of the guns and required a major redesign. Does this make sense?

"Rally's" point here has all the earmarks of gunshop fable about it.  On the face of it it makes no sense.

tipoc


Walt-Sherrill

  • Guest
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2007, 06:09:13 PM »
I'm no expert but I can read. According to the text the dust cover was extended to make up for a loss of accuracy that resulted from changeing steels used in manufacturing the slide and frame. How would changeing steels to "meet lower western standards" effect accuracy?

Especially since the CZ-75 was, in effect, designed for sales in the West.  (The trade barriers the U.S. set up delayed it a number of years.)  The gun was NOT designed for Soviet Bloc sales -- good thing, too, as it never happened.  (Only a handful of units ever used the CZ, outside of Czechoslovakia.)

As I wrote earlier -- the source was a bleeped comic book!

Offline tipoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2007, 06:40:53 PM »
Good point Walt. I thought of the same thing as I sat on the throne at work today reading the comics.

tipoc

Offline Cliff47

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2007, 08:10:54 PM »
I think we can all agree with the comment above that 'The CZ75 is the pinnacle of semi-automatic pistol evolution'.  What ever else is wrong with the 'Gunsmith Cats' manga, the author has excellent taste in semi-auto handguns.

Offline atblis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2007, 05:49:13 PM »
I thought the change of rail length had to do with Swedish army requirements.

Walt-Sherrill

  • Guest
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2007, 06:06:29 PM »
Swedish Army requirements?  Did the Swedish Army ever buy any?

(I thought the change away from the short rail was due to some weakness in the frame.)

Offline atblis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 09:20:15 AM »
They didn't buy any I think, but at one point they were pitching them to the Swedes.

I know nothing about the accuracy of this article
dana.ucc.nau.edu/dad34/cz_75.htm

Note that 75s with the three Swedish crowns on them are considered collectible.

Offline tipoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 11:19:52 AM »
I took a look at J.M. Ramos' book "The CZ 75 Family" which has the following to say on this topic:

"Most rare ...is the early model incorporating 3/4 length receiver/slide guide rails. This pistol was beautifully finished...It's componants were entirely machined from forged metals and were extremely hard. (Approximately a thousand of the early models reportedly had Spanish made componants. These were produced by a well known military arms contractor while the CZ factory was preparing for full scale production...The Spanish made guns...had a higher quality finish-both inside and out-Than the later CZ produced pistols."

Most of those guns were sent to European distributors and some to Canada Ramos says, to interest prospective buyers.

In 1976 the first articles on the CZ75 hit the press and it became a sensation. Full scale production was on.

Ramos claims that the early gun with the Spanish made parts was produced for about a year. In 76 at around SN 27000 the frame/slide rail was lengthened to improve accuracy and durability. At about SN 20000 improvements had been made to the trigger in the form of a safety notch.

He makes no mention of the Swedish contract. Which does not mean that the improvements wern't made to meet the challenge of vying for a lucrative military contract. Which was likely also the reason for the change to a baked enamel finish.

One source says the Swedes requested the change, Ramos says it was made to improve accuracy and durability and went along with other improvements made to the gun. Both may be correct as the engineers responded to input.

That the early guns were of a better finish in terms of the metal work, the polishing and  blueing of the finish, could be the source of the stories that the steel was stronger. CZ would have promoted the strength of it's forged steel frames and slides versus what Sig had at the time.There is no reason, no evidence, other than "The Gunsmith Cats" and similiar rumors to believe that the steel in the long rail guns was significantly weaker or softer than the first short rail version. When folks saw the two side by side, the early long and short, the former with it's rougher finish and tool marks inside, it may have been easy to believe that the "commies" were useing degraded steel.

The longer rail would have shifted more weight to the front and actually aided in recovery time, the same way that heavy full length guide rods in a 1911 can and improve some shooters scores.

Till I see more actual evidence I'll continue to think that, other than routine changes in steels to see what is more cost effective (something all gunmakers do), that the steel in all CZs is likely up to par.

 A teenager in Chicago who is a weapons expert, gunsmith, and owns and operates a gun store and fights crime on the side is not a reliable source. When the author of that story line gives me info I won't take it to the bank.

tipoc

tipoc

Offline tipoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2007, 07:21:14 PM »
A little more info.

In the March 2007 issue of the American Rifleman their is an article on the Armalite 24 by Glenn M. Gilbert. The article quotes Mark Westrom of Armalite on the CZ75 as saying "Back then, (the early 80s) the slide and frame of the gun were hammer forged." with the later CZ75s being investment cast.

This is another take on it. For Westrom apparently the PreB was the best version of the 75 because the steel was not investment cast. I had thought all CZs were made from billets. Westrom has high praise for the CZ.

At any rate another version of the good steel bad steel story. Armalite is directly targeting CZs place in the market with the 24. Which borrows heavily from the CZ and the Sig P210. They will come out with a compact version soon and next year a .40S&W version and a .45acp version later. Likely we will hear more about CZs steel.

tipoc


Offline briang2ad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3276
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2007, 07:32:11 PM »
I believe that Steve Camp reports that ALL Hipower 40s have CAST steel frames - now, with the 40 being a cartridge which exerts more battering on a gun, I would think they chose cast steel for a reason.  I would also guess that not all castings are equal, and not all processes or execution of the process is equal.  A modern cast frame is probably better than an old 'forged frame"  That is why people don't shoot +Ps in old 1911s...

Walt-Sherrill

  • Guest
STEEL in CZs
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2007, 09:32:56 PM »
Armalite is directly targeting CZs place in the market with the 24. Which borrows heavily from the CZ and the Sig P210.

You must have read the same article I read.  The author didn't do his homework.

the AR-24 borrowed heavily from the CZ, but not from the SIG P-210.  (The only similarity to the SIG P-210 is the slide inside the frame, but that's a feature of the CZ, too.)

Everything else is different, from 8-round single stack mags to a single-action fire control assembly that can be removed by unscrewing one screw.  The sights are worse than a CZs.

They're just wonderfully made guns, sorta like the Sphinx line...

I've had a P-210, and there is almost NOTHING in the design except the slide/frame feature just designed.  Nothing else is similar.  (Barrel lock is similar -- standard Browning design, but that's true of most guns since the BHP, from which SIG borrowed the idea.)

They just taken a CZ and tried to improve it.  Maybe they have.