Plus P Ammo

[jwc007]

What CZ75B rocks said!  

To my knowledge, the CZ-75B is not a standard-issue sidearm for any NATO member.  

Allow me to expand your base of knowledge.  A version of the CZ75B is standard Military Issue for the Czech Republic and has served Czech Forces quite well in Afghanistan and Iraq.  The Czech Special Forces have adopted the Polymer Framed SP01 Phantom.

[Yuk]

Standard - 35,500 max (SAMMI/ANSI)
+P - 38,500 max (SAMMI/ANSI)
+P+ - 42,000 max  - remember +P+ is not a SAMMI/ANSI Standard term
NATO - 36,550 Max
The above are all Piezo pressures not crusher
NATO Proof pressure 45,687

My rant is done 

Please forgive my questioning, but this is a topic I've never participated in before, so it's all new to me.  From what I can discern from your list, the 1050 psi pressure difference between 9mm NATO and standard 9mm is relatively insignificant (less than 3%), and significantly less than +P ammo. Therefore, I would think that 9mm NATO should pose no significant problem in weapon cambered for 9x19mm ammo.

Am I wrong?

[CFulepp]

Hello guys I am not sure if this information has been provided on these forums before but here is a link to some great water tests on +p and non +p 9X19 rounds. After reading through these I adopted Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2) as my carry round but go to the range with just standard 9mm full metal jacket rounds. Take a look at this gentleman's work and tell me your thoughts.

http://frag.110mb.com/

[bang bang]

Hello guys I am not sure if this information has been provided on these forums before but here is a link to some great water tests on +p and non +p 9X19 rounds. After reading through these I adopted Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2) as my carry round but go to the range with just standard 9mm full metal jacket rounds. Take a look at this gentleman's work and tell me your thoughts.

http://frag.110mb.com/

Hey thats so awsome. 

the only issue.  how many people or animals you know that are water filled milk jugs.   

[CZ75BRocks]

Yuk:   The numbers don't lie!!  I completely agree with you!! The differential is marginal I wouldn't even give it a second thought. JUST SHOOT IT.....after your Rifle is empty/broke!!

[Yuk]

Yuk:   The numbers don't lie!!  I completely agree with you!! The differential is marginal I wouldn't even give it a second thought. JUST SHOOT IT.....after your Rifle is empty/broke!!

I get what you're saying, but I'm a poor man and my only rifle is a 45 year old .22 repeater... That has spent most of its life as a fence post.
So... I'm going to stick with the 9mm as my first line of defense .

[Memphis75B]

Hello guys I am not sure if this information has been provided on these forums before but here is a link to some great water tests on +p and non +p 9X19 rounds. After reading through these I adopted Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2) as my carry round but go to the range with just standard 9mm full metal jacket rounds. Take a look at this gentleman's work and tell me your thoughts.

http://frag.110mb.com/

This is handy info for the next time I'm forced to defend myself from a milk jug of water.  The problem with these tests is that water is the PERFECT medium for hollow points to expand in.  I have shot some hollow points straight down into 5 gallon buckets of water before.  Even weak 38 special loads will show perfect expansion every time.  Even ballistics gelatin doesn't provide for the randomness of the human target.  It's probably accurate compared to shooting a naked man in the stomach.  What I'd like to see is a tester take the time to use some good human analogs like pigs (whole, not gutted), put them in a variety of clothing, and then shoot large enough sample groups with different aim points to see the results of hitting bone, heavy clothing, passing through another limb before hitting torso...all the real world random crap.  It would even be great to add side auto glass and maybe even sheetrock to the mix.

Anybody here a pig farmer?

[Radom]

What CZ75B rocks said!  

To my knowledge, the CZ-75B is not a standard-issue sidearm for any NATO member.  

Allow me to expand your base of knowledge.  A version of the CZ75B is standard Military Issue for the Czech Republic and has served Czech Forces quite well in Afghanistan and Iraq.  The Czech Special Forces have adopted the Polymer Framed SP01 Phantom.

I think we are speaking at cross-purposes.  The SP-01 isn't a 75B.  The other version you speak of does not sound like the same 75B available to civilians in North America. 

OTOH, Turkey is a NATO member, and they issue 75Bs and Sarsilmaz clones, come to think of it....

[Radom]

I will point out one last time that SAAMI itself does not agree with the 36,500 psi figure listed for 9mm NATO.  That sounds like the U.S. manufactured M882, which is much lower in pressure than a lot of other 9mm NATO loads out there.  The only 9mm NATO ammunition that I have seen for sale in years is the Hirtenberger load that comes much closer to the proof pressure figure.  There have been dozens of SAAMI bulletins warning about this over the years. 

One of the reasons there is a lot of confusion and debate over this is that the SAAMI, CIP, and NATO testing protocols are all different. 

[jwc007]

I think we are speaking at cross-purposes.  The SP-01 isn't a 75B.  The other version you speak of does not sound like the same 75B available to civilians in North America. 

OTOH, Turkey is a NATO member, and they issue 75Bs and Sarsilmaz clones, come to think of it....

Other than the finish and the required Lanyard loop, it's basically a 75B, which is just parsing some minor details.  Other than that, you have answered/disqualified your own original statement, and I commend you on your honesty on that.  No it may not be the same 75B available to civilians, yet.  But perhaps it may be added to the list someday.

[mmsanchez]

I own a CZ P-07 9MM and I never used plus P ammo, I will like to known if you recomend or have you used this type of ammo in your P-07

[davidoff]

I run +P ammo in all my CZ's and have had no problems.  I practice with reloaded versions of the ammo that I carry, and I carry +P.  That is one of the reasons that I chose the CZ-75B, it CAN take a steady diet of +P ammo.

[Road Dawg]

I won't segue into the "What the heck is NATO?" discussion, since that wasn't the topic of this thread.  

I regularly shoot +P loads from Speer and Corbon through my 75 without trouble. (the 124 grn +P Gold Dot is my carry load for the 9mm)  I don't do this exclusively and the bulk of my range ammo in 9mm is of standard fare.  It doesn't stress the gun unduly and I've seen no signs of excessive wear.  I tend to stay away from +P+ offerings and have no experience with true NATO ammo. (Radoms information on that subject is very interesting)

For some reason people seem to have developed the idea that +P ammo is some kind of canned nitro.  This is evident all the time in revolver shooters and +P .38 special ammunition, which in itself isn't nearly as peppy as 9mm +P.  I don't know how many times I've seen questions like, "Can I shoot +P .38s in my .357?"!  I suppose this may come from the fact that we have an entire generation of shooters who think the .40S&W is a powerhouse and the .45acp is big medicine.  Tacking the moniker of "+P" onto something seems to make an undue impression, something that may be a marketing gimmic more than anything else.

[CZ75BRocks]

You still have to put "lead on target". That's all that counts. You can't purchase a compensitory mechanism for lack of practice.

[Canuck44]

Tacking the moniker of "+P" onto something seems to make an undue impression, something that may be a marketing gimmic more than anything else.

Truer words were never written.  9MM Nato is just a headstamp, nothing more.  Don't even get me started on +P+ ammo.

Take Care

Bob