P-07: A True CZ or a CZ Wannabee?

[Foma]

In the interest of providing constructive feedback, I have opened this subject to gather opinions about the newest pistol from CZ, the P-07. Enjoying the reputation of it's predecessors, the P07 promises to continue a line of tradition from CZ that stands at number one, bar none. But what is really behind the P-07, CZ tradition or something else?

The P-07 was not designed for the shooting enthusiast or for the gentleman's sport. The P-07 was designed for military and law enforcement. Much is evident from the radical design that CZ has undertaken. Working from the outside in, one will notice that the slide and barrel finish is matte, a radical change from tradition. No only is it matte, it's not quite right. A few hundred rounds will show imperfections in the finish and it's desire to come off. The finish is very scratch prone and wear and tear is visible straight from the factory. CZ has undertaken this change to win law enforcement contracts that require that matte finish in the U.S. Just look at Glocks and Sigs. CZ's tried to the same thing.

Secondly, the barrel and trigger. Both are different and not something that CZ has produced in the past. The Omega trigger is a clone of the Sig trigger system and not a novel CZ design. The same is true for the barrel. Nothing similar to traditional CZs and rather a replica of a different manufacturer. The trigger is simpler but not reputable.

Thirdly, what about the polymer frame? Traditionally, CZ pistols have used steel or light allow frame to ensure durability, ruggedness and reliability. A heavier frame also helps with recoil, follow up shots, and credibility. This polymer was wrong from day one. Not only did the P-07 have a cheap feel, the polymer frame prevented mags from dropping free. Sometimes they would, but sometimes they wouldn't. CZ has acknowledged this flaw and is issuing new handguns as replacement. An expensive fix for such a flaw.

So what is driving the P-07, why has CZ cloned so much and varied from it's traditional design? The P-07 is less expensive that traditional CZs but it does not live up to the CZ reputation. Most shooters want pistols to be accurate, reliable and durable. Reliability comes with time. There are so many changes to this CZ that reliability cannot be guaranteed. The radical changes have also questioned durability. So what was CZ thinking? Why change so much?

[ming]

I'm new to CZ as the P-07 is my first.  I can't offer replies to all your questions because I'm so far from being an expert on things CZ.  However, I don't doubt that CZ produced a polymer framed gun to tap into the large market for these handguns.  I'm not sure about your comments on polymer framed guns possibly being less reliable, durable, or rugged.  There are quite a few Glock owners out there that might disagree.  My P-07 has less than 1000 rounds through it so I can't make any meaningful statements about reliability, etc., but it has been flawless so far as well as pretty darn accurate.  Mine has no problem with mags dropping free although this isn't a big deal to me.  I also wouldn't criticize CZ for introducing a product designed to meet certain requirements, e.g., matte finish for law enforcement.  After all, they are in the business to make a profit and if this helps their bottom line then good for them.  If a potential buyer doesn't like this finish they're free to look at other models/manufacturers.  All in all I've been very pleased with my purchase and I'm glad that CZ had it in their lineup.

Interesting questions you've raised.  I look forward to reading replies of those with more knowledge on CZ than I have.

[Falcn]

Sure let's just stagnate and never change.... 

CZ needed a light weight polymer framed gun to get into the daily carry realm/police carry realm.  Not many people want to carry a CZ75B all day long because of the size/weight.

The polymer frame feels great to me?  You are allowed your opinion on that if you don't like polymer - hey look they STILL MAKE the CZ steel/alloy frames for "shooting enthusiast? or gentleman's sport".  If you want them they are still available for those purposes.  I don't understand the want for the same-old same-old in a new gun from CZ.

The Omega trigger has better feel for SA than the standard CZ75B trigger.  I like it.  Is there something wrong with it from your viewpoint?
Things get reputable from being around and used.  Give the Omega trigger time.  If it is a copy of a SIG trigger how is not reputable?  SIG is very reputable!

Mag drop is being fixed at a rapid pace.  I just got my replacement CZ - mags drop like an anvil.  I'm happy with the customer service.

I find the P-07 to be very accurate and follow-up is easy - it is not hurt by the polymer frame.  I don't understand your claim that a metal frame lends credibility.  Let's see....Glock, XDM,  Ruger SR9, S&W M&P...[sarcasm]yeah polymer frames are not reputable[/sarcasm]

[Belwolf]

I suspect the true 'tradition" of CZ, like all manufacturing firms, is to make money. The P-07 is a new CZ design, most certainly influenced by earlier engineering of theirs and others, that is an attempt to reach a wider market.

If the P-07 is a success, it will undoubtedly widen the market for the "classic" CZ's, so it is a win win situation.

Let us just hope CZ keeps building unchanged "classics" (unlike SIG, for example) 

[Otto N Sure]

Another note on the P-07. It isn't the first poly CZ. I had a gawdaweful CZ 100 back in the 90's. All polymer, felt fantastic in the hand, just a trigger from hell. Then there's the RAMI-P and the 75 Phantom all developed for those that desire poly frame guns. The old saying was never truer, "different strokes for different folks".

Otto

[Falcn]

Another note on the P-07. It isn't the first poly CZ. I had a gawdaweful CZ 100 back in the 90's. All polymer, felt fantastic in the hand, just a trigger from hell. Then there's the RAMI-P and the 75 Phantom all developed for those that desire poly frame guns. The old saying was never truer, "different strokes for different folks".

Otto

Too true!  Not all "traditional" CZ's are metal.  Just the 75B is what the original poster was lamenting I suppose?

[Foma]

To all, thanks for the replies. But perhaps I failed to convey my message and concern. People have honed in on a few things: 1) CZ made polymers before  2) the P-07 is accurate and 3) No issues with reliability thus far.

Although all three could (and probably are) true, that wasn't the main area of concern. The P-07 may have the potential to be a great handgun. Time of course will tell. The P-07 in my opinion is not a true CZ. The P-07 is too much of a clone than an original design to bare the CZ name. I am all for novel designs, but a clone is not something I would expect from a world premiere weapons manufacturer.  Sure, CZ has 'cloned' weapons before. The VZ-58 is a prime example. Most inexperienced people would say the VZ-58 is a Czech copy of an AK. However, on close inspection one would notice major internal differences and improvements that quickly differentiate the CZ against any AK that I have seen. The P-07 (in my opinion) is a Sig clone and not 1) A novel CZ design or 2) An improved version of a Sig. I see no reason why any law enforcement agency (in the U.S.) would purchase a new design from a company that hasn't made them before versus a company that has been making them for years.  If CZ took the design and improved it and/or brought something new to the plate, the discussion would be much different.

This general approach is the reason for my post. I am concerned with the direction CZ is going.I cannot logically understand this decision and why it was made CZ has many numerous other pistol lines (SP01 and P01) that could be modified for the U.S. law enforcement. Why introduce this one?

I would like to state that I do not agree that the P-07 is a great shooting gun. It's certainly a good shooter but substandard to what CZ normally makes. Shooting three CZs back to back, I quickly noticed issues in the P07 with muzzle flip, follow up shots and rough texture on the plastic that cuts up your hand. None of these are present in the P01, which is only slightly heavier. The rubber grips on the P01 offer more for recoil absorption. The heavier frame helps with muzzle rise and the gun just has a much more sold feel. The P-07 has NO adjustable grips of any kind. We all know one size does not fit all. The front sight looks like it's getting ready to fall off at any minute. And P-07 mags wont work in other CZs. True, 75 mags will work in a P-07 but not vice-versa. The P-07 is accurate but most guns are more accurate than people. It's not about accuracy, as much as the ability to shoot accurately easily. And the P-07 falls short against the P-01 and the SP-01 in these areas as well.

So back to my original question, what was CZ thinking?

[dusty10]

I see by your gun list signature that you own a P-07.  Mind if I ask why you bought it?

[bang bang]

In the interest of providing constructive feedback, I have opened this subject to gather opinions about the newest pistol from CZ, the P-07. Enjoying the reputation of it's predecessors, the P07 promises to continue a line of tradition from CZ that stands at number one, bar none. But what is really behind the P-07, CZ tradition or something else?

The P-07 was not designed for the shooting enthusiast or for the gentleman's sport. The P-07 was designed for military and law enforcement. Much is evident from the radical design that CZ has undertaken. Working from the outside in, one will notice that the slide and barrel finish is matte, a radical change from tradition. No only is it matte, it's not quite right. A few hundred rounds will show imperfections in the finish and it's desire to come off. The finish is very scratch prone and wear and tear is visible straight from the factory. CZ has undertaken this change to win law enforcement contracts that require that matte finish in the U.S. Just look at Glocks and Sigs. CZ's tried to the same thing.

im not sure what/how the design team envisioned the product and for what segment of the population they targeted it.  only CZs will know this.   A matte finish on a gun is not new.  look at the park used duing WW2.  again, im not sure of what they were trying to achieve other then maybe an application of a finish.  if it wears as expected who knows.  i dont see or have read anywhere where the finish is suppose to be foreever.  from what ive seen on my CZs, i see finish wear on all of the CZs i have shot.   to me, the wear is a non issue.  it maybe costmetic for some or alot of people, but they are guns with utility.

Secondly, the barrel and trigger. Both are different and not something that CZ has produced in the past. The Omega trigger is a clone of the Sig trigger system and not a novel CZ design. The same is true for the barrel. Nothing similar to traditional CZs and rather a replica of a different manufacturer. The trigger is simpler but not reputable.

I havent looked into the P07 trigger system or the barrel system.

Thirdly, what about the polymer frame? Traditionally, CZ pistols have used steel or light allow frame to ensure durability, ruggedness and reliability. A heavier frame also helps with recoil, follow up shots, and credibility. This polymer was wrong from day one. Not only did the P-07 have a cheap feel, the polymer frame prevented mags from dropping free. Sometimes they would, but sometimes they wouldn't. CZ has acknowledged this flaw and is issuing new handguns as replacement. An expensive fix for such a flaw.

People felt the same way with the Glock when it came out many years ago and now alot of mfg are using poly in their weapons.  Even ARs.  Weight doesnt necessarily mean it will soak up the recoil.  there is the maerial itself.   aluminum has a natural tendency to dampen/absorbe vibration.  polymers too. 

Injection molded parts can be extremely inexpensive to make if done in volumes.  im sure that cost was the factor in the poly frame as with other mfgs.  imo, polymer frames and MIM parts are here to stay.  so be prepared.

[Foma]

Small update: The CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow mags do NOT reliably work in the P-07. They do not lock in place and drop without commanding. Looks like P-07 will only accept P-07 mags.

[Foma]

Dusty10 -

A fair question.

I was originally against purchasing the P-07 as a carry gun (too new and too different). I was doing a little research and settled on the P-01 for 1) 9mm standardization 2) platform / control standardization with my other CZs. As I was looking around,  a sales rep showed me the P-07 that was for sale. The reason why it caught my eye was because it had a lot of custom work done on it. As I inspected it further, I immediately saw the CZ custom shop's signature. A trijicon front sight, tactical rear and a trigger job lowering the DA pull to 8 lbs and SA to 3.5 lbs. Having a similar set up on the P-01, I knew the cost of such a job. The asking price was $350.00 for everything. Considering these guns are new at $500. I asked what was wrong with it. The sales agent came clean and said the mags don't drop free (A67 serial number). Thinking I could 'fix' the issue, I picked up the P-07 as a test gun.

The issue became too annoying so I sent the gun back to CZ-USA. I was told the gun would be replaced with a new one and they would reinstall the sights and trigger system. A few weeks ago, I received my original P-07 back. It was the same gun I had purchased but the mag drop issue was fixed. I am not sure what they did as CZ claimed there was no fix for the issue, but whatever they did, the mags drop VERY free. The only guess I have is they re-coated the internals of the frame.

I spoke to a CZ military rep who informed me that CZ is doing a lot of work to get the P-07 'ready' for law enforcement. I showed him my P-07 and he agreed with my concerns. The finish on the barrel/slide is not what CZ had intended. It shows wear too quickly and comes off too fast. CZ is already working on a new finish. The second big problem they had was the non-drop free mags that are now fixed. The third major problem that CZ is addressing is the slide-closure issue. Apparently, when you slam home a loaded mag in the P-07, the slide closes without release of slide-lock. Personally I don't have a problem with this, but apparently it's a NO-GO for law enforcement. So the latest fix for the P-07 will address this issue.

So I am learning so many things about the P-07, some positive some not. I attached a few pictures, including the front sight.

[BGC4219]

SP-01 mags will not fit the P-07, this has been brought up in previous post and also in the design. P-07 mags are 1-1.5mm wider than the SP-01 mags. This is the reason they can get 16rnds in the mag compared to 14 for the P-01. the Grip walls are thinner to keep the grip width similar to P01.

Some one on the Group does make a mod to use SP-01, CZ-75B mags in the P07. 

Why they call this gun a CZ-75 P-07 i dont know, none of the parts i know are interchangeable with the standard CZ-75B models

[excheck]

  Why they call this gun a CZ-75 P-07 i dont know, none of the parts i know are interchangeable with the standard CZ-75B models

On the box and on the slide is CZ75 P-07.
 Here is CZ catalog.   
http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/

[davidoff]

I have to agree with the OP.  Putting "CZ-75" anywhere near a P-07 is just plain false.  It is an attempt to attach a good name to an altogether different pistol.  It is plain dishonest, and has disappointed me with CZ as a company.  I have no issue with CZ coming out with a plastic pistol.  Everyone else has, and it seems to be what people want.  But to attach the CZ-75 moniker to a pistol that has little to nothing in common with the classic CZ-75 seems to be wrong.

[Foma]

DavidOff,

I think you honed in on what I was aiming at. The P-07 is not a true CZ. It could very well be a great pistol, but it's just not a CZ-75. After much debate, I have decided to selling my P-07 Duty.